Would You Have Sold Bullets to Jared Loughner?

Loughner MugshotI am sure this post will spark, the perennial “Guns Kill People” Vs. “People Kill People” debate we have in the United States, and my interest is to further the discourse, not draw an opinion in this debate as related to what happened in Tucson yet. Here are some things I’ve noticed reported by the media:

Thanks for your thoughts.

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  • gondolfin

    If they only had removed the implant..

  • Anonymous

    If they only had removed the implant..

  • MrPink

    This dude looks like the love child of Fester and Mickey (Natural Born Killers) what a waist of human flesh. Hopefully he will be put down soon. No need to waist tax dollars on this dumb fuck schmuck.

    • damg

      im astonished at how liberal you are. your love for humanity is overwhelming.
      anyways, i think he looks like glenn beck.

      • MrPink

        My love for humanity is very overwhelming. For instance, if I was there when this was happening and had any way of helping those poor innocent people, I would have taken this guy down and snapped his neck. But do you think we should show compassion to this guy and put him in a cell paid by us? Bottom line is he is very sick and like any animal that is too sick to take care of you put him down or Euthanize his ass. Its the humane thing to do.

        • Anonymous

          two wrongs DO make a right!

        • damg

          everyone, everywhere, irregardless of the gravity of their crimes should be allowed a chance at not only personal retribution, but also rehabilitation. end of story. im happy my taxes (in theory) fund this.

  • MrPink

    This dude looks like the love child of Fester and Mickey (Natural Born Killers) what a waist of human flesh. Hopefully he will be put down soon. No need to waist tax dollars on this dumb fuck schmuck.

  • damg

    im astonished at how liberal you are. your love for humanity is overwhelming.
    anyways, i think he looks like glenn beck.

  • Marklar_Prime

    The reactionary fear mongering nut jobs that would attempt to steal our rights and liberties every time some freak snaps are a greater danger to us than Loughner could ever be.

    • Alex

      This guy.

    • MrPink

      My apologies to the fallen but It almost seems too perfect. What a great excuse to take more of our gun rights away.

  • http://twitter.com/Marklar_Prime Marklar Kronkite

    The reactionary fear mongering nut jobs that would attempt to steal our rights and liberties every time some freak snaps are a greater danger to us than Loughner could ever be.

  • emperorreagan

    Would I have sold bullets to this guy?

    Probably, if I were an overworked, underpaid cashier at Wal-Mart. I’m surprised they turned him away the first time.

    • XxzedleppelinxX

      Agreed, I’m surprised also that he was turned away. People can’t refuse service to every suspicious looking person, because the human brain (with the help of enough paranoia) can turn any person into a suspicious looking person.

  • emperorreagan

    Would I have sold bullets to this guy?

    Probably, if I were an overworked, underpaid cashier at Wal-Mart. I’m surprised they turned him away the first time.

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  • ken vallario

    the real question we all need to ask ourselves is who is an appropriate person to sell lethal weapons to?

    i would think that the desire to own a weapon would be the measure we would use to restrict the sale.

    the manufacture of an item has consequences….every gun in existence is a potential threat to our health and our sense of security.

    • APR

      Based on your argument, governments by their very nature are psychopathic. We should disarm all military and police forces worldwide and violence would end like magic.

      As long as there is a profit to be made along with a demand for violence, weapons will be sold. Humanity has a long way to evolve. We’re still in the stone age.

      • ken vallario

        violence is a part of our nature…and machines make violence more efficient…
        i am simply talking about slowing down that aspect of our nature, putting up roadblocks in front of it…
        repressing it…instead of dedicating part of our economy to its service…when we do that we take horror and ultra-violence from instinct and make it a part of our culture.

        • APR

          The forbidden fruit tastes the sweetest. The places in the US with the most restrictive gun laws have the highest rates of violent crime. Road blocks make people want to get around them. In my State we have the highest per-capita rate of gun ownership and the lowest rate of violent crime. Crime is deterred because the would-be criminal never knows if the occupant of the house or vehicle is armed. Some people never lock their doors here. A friend of mine doesn’t even have a lock on his front door. It also helps that the entire population would fit into one fraction of some of the country’s big cities. We’re spread out with a comfortable distance between neighbors.

          Our industrial and agricultural systems produce abundance, while our economic system needs scarcity in order to function. Scarcity must be created artificially. Borders are drawn, enemies are created to block the sources of supply and so on. Violence or the threat of it is one of the tools used to support the economy.

          The military-industrial complex is a good example. We send billions of dollars to Israel so they can defend themselves by buying arms, most of which are made in the US. If Israel were to suddenly make a permanent peace with its neighbors, that source of income would be lost to defense industries.

          In the US we are taught to fear communists, terrorists, the government and halitosis. This is a fear driven economy, so of course people will want to buy guns and ammo. Also, they are loud and fun to shoot, so there’s your market. Violence is a product. It is profitable.

          (PS: The judge that was killed may have been the primary target.)

          • WhiteRose

            I don’t want to have to walk around worrying that I’m gonna get shot, especially by a bad aim!

          • ken vallario

            correlation does not equal causality.
            the gun laws and the gun violence might be linked in the reverse direction…lots of violence, more restriction of gun laws…
            confirmation bias is another fallacy often at work in these arguments.
            we all have guns, we never lock our doors, so guns create peace…
            there are many other factors at work, like class dynamics, poverty and inequality in the cities as compared to more rural areas. i have lived in both, and i grew up in a rural area with lots of guns.
            i have even enjoyed the occasional skeet shooting session.
            however, i would gladly give up that pleasure to have a more restrictive production of tools for the efficient destruction of human beings.
            there are always costs to changes…and perhaps the occasional freak will always find guns, and that this person should not be used as a fulcrum for such a debate. however, i have always found it odd that we hold onto guns so dearly, it’s just kinda weird.
            there are so many other cool things we could hold onto, like video game controllers or golf clubs, or paintbrushes or pens…why do we need those guns so badly, unless we feel that we might need to use them in the future, unless we believe that violent political action is sometimes a necessity.

          • APR

            I tend to stay out of cities. I feel safer in the woods during hunting season than crossing Main Street in some of the larger cities. The people factor is scarier than the gun factor.

            America was born out of violent revolution in response to economic oppression. Guns are part of the culture. When gun violence ends here, so will America. It will become a different place. I believe this is its destiny.

            There’s a short documentary about a place in Pakistan where they use primitive tools to make replicas of just about every handgun, rifle and machine gun, then they test them out by walking outside and fire them into the air. Even if you shut down the gun factories, people will be resourceful: http://www.vbs.tv/newsroom/the-gun-markets-of-pakistan–4

            I think the key is not to remove the guns, rather, it is to remove the motivation for violence. Once that is done, guns will become superfluous.

            And, damnit, identify and treat the mentally ill, just as you would prevent fires or crime. This shouldn’t be left up to the barbaric free market system.

  • ken vallario

    the real question we all need to ask ourselves is who is an appropriate person to sell lethal weapons to?

    i would think that the desire to own a weapon would be the measure we would use to restrict the sale.

    the manufacture of an item has consequences….every gun in existence is a potential threat to our health and our sense of security.

  • XxzedleppelinxX

    Agreed, I’m surprised also that he was turned away. People can’t refuse service to every suspicious looking person, because the human brain (with the help of enough paranoia) can turn any person into a suspicious looking person.

  • Alex

    This guy.

  • http://voxmagi-necessarywords.blogspot.com/ VoxMagi

    Did somebody photoshop that mugshot? cuz I heard nothing about his eyebrows being shaved off before the attack…or after. It looks like someone put in some techie time making sure he looks even more batshit usual.

    • ralph

      It’s the same image that’s everywhere: it does appear he did shave his eyebrows.

      Reminiscent to me of what De Niro’s character did in “Taxi Driver”…

      • dumbsaint

        Aesthetically he’s closer to Wes Craven’s Shocker though

  • http://voxmagi-necessarywords.blogspot.com/ VoxMagi

    Did somebody photoshop that mugshot? cuz I heard nothing about his eyebrows being shaved off before the attack…or after. It looks like someone put in some techie time making sure he looks even more batshit usual.

  • http://voxmagi-necessarywords.blogspot.com/ VoxMagi

    Did somebody photoshop that mugshot? cuz I heard nothing about his eyebrows being shaved off before the attack…or after. It looks like someone put in some techie time making sure he looks even more batshit usual.

  • Jim

    We don’t need no education…….

  • Jim

    We don’t need no education…….

  • Word Eater

    If I were an employee in a place that sold bullets, why would I not sell someone bullets? Is there a waiting list for ammo that I somehow have never heard of?

    I’m upset by the fact that a Wal-mart employee can arbitrarily decide that they don’t want to sell you bullets.

  • Word Eater

    If I were an employee in a place that sold bullets, why would I not sell someone bullets? Is there a waiting list for ammo that I somehow have never heard of?

    I’m upset by the fact that a Wal-mart employee can arbitrarily decide that they don’t want to sell you bullets.

  • http://disinfo.com ralph

    It’s the same image that’s everywhere: it does appear he did shave his eyebrows.

    Reminiscent to me of what De Niro’s character did in “Taxi Driver”…

  • Anonymous

    Aesthetically he’s closer to Wes Craven’s Shocker though

  • MrPink

    My love for humanity is very overwhelming. For instance, if I was there when this was happening and had any way of helping those poor innocent people, I would have taken this guy down and snapped his neck. But do you think we should show compassion to this guy and put him in a cell paid by us? Bottom line is he is very sick and like any animal that is too sick to take care of you put him down or Euthanize his ass. Its the humane thing to do.

  • MrPink

    My apologies to the fallen but It almost seems too perfect. What a great excuse to take more of our gun rights away.

  • dumbsaint

    I can’t help but be reminded of the port arthur massacare that happened here in Aus and was the catalyst for changes in gun law ownership laws. I agree with the laws and think they make a good deal of sense.

    Basically the only way to own a Glock 19 down here is to be an active participant in a target shooter’s club. Even then you need to go through a 6 month probationary period using club guns. You then need to continue to participate in club matches throughout the year to maintain your license. Basically you’re required to prove you’ve an interest in owning a gun responsibly and training to that effect.

    I can only speak for my own culture of course. It seems to me that it’s not unreasonable to ask for people that have an interest in gun ownership to be required to jump through a few hoops and help make sure these powerful weapons are put in safe hands. Sure some nutjobs might slip through the cracks but it makes it that much less likely. Besides, you’ll be a better shooter as a result.

    • APR

      There haven’t been any more massacres in Australia, but the gun laws have not accelerated the already existing decline in gun deaths. This is an interesting article: http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1736501,00.html . Australia has one fifteenth the gun related deaths compared to America, but I suspect that cultural differences might have a lot to do with it as well. I’ve never been “down under” so I have no idea.

      I bet you have a good health care system that identifies and treats the mentally ill sooner than America’s “free market” system, though. The shooter here was as loony as they come. He was identified as such by school officials and students (one sat near the classroom door, just in case). He was kicked out of school, but nothing else was done to help this individual or prevent him from buying firearms. In America, mental health is just another “market.”

  • Anonymous

    I can’t help but be reminded of the port arthur massacare that happened here in Aus and was the catalyst for changes in gun law ownership laws. I agree with the laws and think they make a good deal of sense.

    Basically the only way to own a Glock 19 down here is to be an active participant in a target shooter’s club. Even then you need to go through a 6 month probationary period using club guns. You then need to continue to participate in club matches throughout the year to maintain your license. Basically you’re required to prove you’ve an interest in owning a gun responsibly and training to that effect.

    I can only speak for my own culture of course. It seems to me that it’s not unreasonable to ask for people that have an interest in gun ownership to be required to jump through a few hoops and help make sure these powerful weapons are put in safe hands. Sure some nutjobs might slip through the cracks but it makes it that much less likely. Besides, you’ll be a better shooter as a result.

  • APR

    Based on your argument, governments by their very nature are psychopathic. We should disarm all military and police forces worldwide and violence would end like magic.

    As long as there is a profit to be made along with a demand for violence, weapons will be sold. Humanity has a long way to evolve. We’re still in the stone age.

  • ken vallario

    violence is a part of our nature…and machines make violence more efficient…
    i am simply talking about slowing down that aspect of our nature, putting up roadblocks in front of it…
    repressing it…instead of dedicating part of our economy to its service…when we do that we take horror and ultra-violence from instinct and make it a part of our culture.

  • ken vallario

    violence is a part of our nature…and machines make violence more efficient…
    i am simply talking about slowing down that aspect of our nature, putting up roadblocks in front of it…
    repressing it…instead of dedicating part of our economy to its service…when we do that we take horror and ultra-violence from instinct and make it a part of our culture.

  • ken vallario

    violence is a part of our nature…and machines make violence more efficient…
    i am simply talking about slowing down that aspect of our nature, putting up roadblocks in front of it…
    repressing it…instead of dedicating part of our economy to its service…when we do that we take horror and ultra-violence from instinct and make it a part of our culture.

  • Haystack

    I don’t know why people have so much trouble getting this — we can’t prevent mentally unstable people from buying guns unless we know who they are, and we don’t know who they are unless they have already done something to identify themselves to “the system.” It’s not as though people immediately register with the courts the first time they hear a voice in their heads telling them to kill somebody.

  • Haystack

    I don’t know why people have so much trouble getting this — we can’t prevent mentally unstable people from buying guns unless we know who they are, and we don’t know who they are unless they have already done something to identify themselves to “the system.” It’s not as though people immediately register with the courts the first time they hear a voice in their heads telling them to kill somebody.

  • APR

    The forbidden fruit tastes the sweetest. The places in the US with the most restrictive gun laws have the highest rates of violent crime. Road blocks make people want to get around them. In my State we have the highest per-capita rate of gun ownership and the lowest rate of violent crime. Crime is deterred because the would-be criminal never knows if the occupant of the house or vehicle is armed. Some people never lock their doors here. A friend of mine doesn’t even have a lock on his front door. It also helps that the entire population would fit into one fraction of some of the country’s big cities. We’re spread out with a comfortable distance between neighbors.

    Our industrial and agricultural systems produce abundance, while our economic system needs scarcity in order to function. Scarcity must be created artificially. Borders are drawn, enemies are created to block the sources of supply and so on. Violence or the threat of it is one of the tools used to support the economy.

    The military-industrial complex is a good example. We send billions of dollars to Israel so they can defend themselves by buying arms, most of which are made in the US. If Israel were to suddenly make a permanent peace with its neighbors, that source of income would be lost to defense industries.

    In the US we are taught to fear communists, terrorists, the government and halitosis. This is a fear driven economy, so of course people will want to buy guns and ammo. Also, they are loud and fun to shoot, so there’s your market. Violence is a product. It is profitable.

    (PS: The judge that was killed may have been the primary target.)

  • WhiteRose

    I don’t want to have to walk around worrying that I’m gonna get shot, especially by a bad aim!

  • ken vallario

    correlation does not equal causality.
    the gun laws and the gun violence might be linked in the reverse direction…lots of violence, more restriction of gun laws…
    confirmation bias is another fallacy often at work in these arguments.
    we all have guns, we never lock our doors, so guns create peace…
    there are many other factors at work, like class dynamics, poverty and inequality in the cities as compared to more rural areas. i have lived in both, and i grew up in a rural area with lots of guns.
    i have even enjoyed the occasional skeet shooting session.
    however, i would gladly give up that pleasure to have a more restrictive production of tools for the efficient destruction of human beings.
    there are always costs to changes…and perhaps the occasional freak will always find guns, and that this person should not be used as a fulcrum for such a debate. however, i have always found it odd that we hold onto guns so dearly, it’s just kinda weird.
    there are so many other cool things we could hold onto, like video game controllers or golf clubs, or paintbrushes or pens…why do we need those guns so badly, unless we feel that we might need to use them in the future, unless we believe that violent political action is sometimes a necessity.

  • APR

    There haven’t been any more massacres in Australia, but the gun laws have not accelerated the already existing decline in gun deaths. This is an interesting article: http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1736501,00.html . Australia has one fifteenth the gun related deaths compared to America, but I suspect that cultural differences might have a lot to do with it as well. I’ve never been “down under” so I have no idea.

    I bet you have a good health care system that identifies and treats the mentally ill sooner than America’s “free market” system, though. The shooter here was as loony as they come. He was identified as such by school officials and students (one sat near the classroom door, just in case). He was kicked out of school, but nothing else was done to help this individual or prevent him from buying firearms. In America, mental health is just another “market.”

  • Hadrian999

    he doesn’t look an weirder than 90% of walmart shoppers

  • Hadrian999

    he doesn’t look an weirder than 90% of walmart shoppers

  • APR

    I tend to stay out of cities. I feel safer in the woods during hunting season than crossing Main Street in some of the larger cities. The people factor is scarier than the gun factor.

    America was born out of violent revolution in response to economic oppression. Guns are part of the culture. When gun violence ends here, so will America. It will become a different place. I believe this is its destiny.

    There’s a short documentary about a place in Pakistan where they use primitive tools to make replicas of just about every handgun, rifle and machine gun, then they test them out by walking outside and fire them into the air. Even if you shut down the gun factories, people will be resourceful: http://www.vbs.tv/newsroom/the-gun-markets-of-pakistan–4

    I think the key is not to remove the guns, rather, it is to remove the motivation for violence. Once that is done, guns will become superfluous.

    And, damnit, identify and treat the mentally ill, just as you would prevent fires or crime. This shouldn’t be left up to the barbaric free market system.

  • APR

    I tend to stay out of cities. I feel safer in the woods during hunting season than crossing Main Street in some of the larger cities. The people factor is scarier than the gun factor.

    America was born out of violent revolution in response to economic oppression. Guns are part of the culture. When gun violence ends here, so will America. It will become a different place. I believe this is its destiny.

    There’s a short documentary about a place in Pakistan where they use primitive tools to make replicas of just about every handgun, rifle and machine gun, then they test them out by walking outside and fire them into the air. Even if you shut down the gun factories, people will be resourceful: http://www.vbs.tv/newsroom/the-gun-markets-of-pakistan–4

    I think the key is not to remove the guns, rather, it is to remove the motivation for violence. Once that is done, guns will become superfluous.

    And, damnit, identify and treat the mentally ill, just as you would prevent fires or crime. This shouldn’t be left up to the barbaric free market system.

  • Anonymous

    two wrongs DO make a right!

  • rtb61

    The gun might have been expensive but it was far cheaper than effective mental health care, US priorities, crazy.
    Perhaps it is time to put a hefty tax on firearms, with the tax dollars going into a victims of firearms fund.
    Tax rate something like 100% or more, in fact under user pays requirements it should pay for the full costs associated with victims of gun related crimes.

    • Guest

      Great idea! We can even apply this idea to all sorts of other things too! Like tax all vehicles cause they kill people AND cause global warming! Or what about taxing the taxes even more to fund a “victims of Democide” fund? Fuck yes, forget that getting to the root cause nonsense, just tax the shit out of them all!

  • Anonymous

    The gun might have been expensive but it was far cheaper than effective mental health care, US priorities, crazy.
    Perhaps it is time to put a hefty tax on firearms, with the tax dollars going into a victims of firearms fund.
    Tax rate something like 100% or more, in fact under user pays requirements it should pay for the full costs associated with victims of gun related crimes.

  • Anonymous

    The gun might have been expensive but it was far cheaper than effective mental health care, US priorities, crazy.
    Perhaps it is time to put a hefty tax on firearms, with the tax dollars going into a victims of firearms fund.
    Tax rate something like 100% or more, in fact under user pays requirements it should pay for the full costs associated with victims of gun related crimes.

  • damg

    everyone, everywhere, irregardless of the gravity of their crimes should be allowed a chance at not only personal retribution, but also rehabilitation. end of story. im happy my taxes (in theory) fund this.

  • Guest

    Great idea! We can even apply this idea to all sorts of other things too! Like tax all vehicles cause they kill people AND cause global warming! Or what about taxing the taxes even more to fund a “victims of Democide” fund? Fuck yes, forget that getting to the root cause nonsense, just tax the shit out of them all!

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