France’s Burqa Ban Takes Effect With Two Women Already Arrested

By BananaFamine on April 11, 2011 in News 59

CNN reports:

Paris (CNN) – French police arrested two veiled women protesting the country’s law banning face-hiding Islamic burqas and niqabs Monday, just hours after the legislation took effect.

The arrests outside Notre Dame Cathedral in Paris were not for wearing the prohibited garments. Police say the women were instead arrested for participating in an unauthorized protest. But the incident reflected the high passions the ban has incited among some Muslims…

For more information, see original article.

Activism, Burqas, Civil Liberties, Crime, France, Government, Human Rights, Islam, Muslims, Police State, Religion, Video

Ohio Bans Liquefication Of The Dead

Thousands Of Tourists’ Photographs, Combined Into One

Ironaddict06

This will be Fun to watch.
France finally takes a stand vs. How dear you French gov’t attack our religion.
I’ll put my money on the French government.
Ironaddict06

This will be Fun to watch.
France finally takes a stand vs. How dear you French gov’t attack our religion.
I’ll put my money on the French government.
Andrew

“Unauthorized protest?!”
Andrew

“Unauthorized protest?!”
Anonymous

I’ll admit the outfit is a bit creepy especially with the face shroud -although the law seems a bit extreme too…..what’s a poor Frenchman to do?
GoodDoktorBad

I’ll admit the outfit is a bit creepy especially with the face shroud -although the law seems a bit extreme too…..what’s a poor Frenchman to do?
http://voxmagi-necessarywords.blogspot.com/ VoxMagi

Looks like even the most socialist liberal countries in the world aren’t immune to the haunting allure of Islamophobic BS.
http://voxmagi-necessarywords.blogspot.com/ VoxMagi

Looks like even the most socialist liberal countries in the world aren’t immune to the haunting allure of Islamophobic BS.
- Rufus
  
  Its not about that at all. France is clearly afraid of Ninjas and can’t tell the difference, so they have to arrest anyone who is dressed like the photo used in this story. Ninjaphobia, look it up.
  - http://hormeticminds.blogspot.com/ Chaorder Gradient
    
    Seriously ninjas will mess you up before you even knew anyone was behind you… wait… what was that? Oh shi–
  - http://voxmagi-necessarywords.blogspot.com/ VoxMagi
    
    female ninjas…the sluttiest mammals known to man!!! we can only gain by welcoming them!!!
MoralDrift

Very sticky issue, How does European liberalism deal with a culture that is its antithesis? How does one expect the doctrine of pluralism to survive against the doctrine of one true god?

Interesting questions for our time. Do we resort to repression and conflict or can we find a way to live in harmony with those of different cultures?
Anonymous

Very sticky issue, How does European liberalism deal with a culture that is its antithesis? How does one expect the doctrine of pluralism to survive against the doctrine of one true god?

Interesting questions for our time. Do we resort to repression and conflict or can we find a way to live in harmony with those of different cultures?
http://couplewriters.blogspot.com/ Sudha Saraswat

I am an atheist so I have nothing to say about Islam or Islamic tradition. I don’t care about religious rights because I am not secularist, I am simply Atheist.

But when we talk about Burqa/Niqab or full faced veil, then I would say that it is a natural right of any person to decide what to wear or what not to wear.

if a person decides to grow his hair and use a turban as a sikh, it is his right. If a girl decide to use veils to protect her face and other skin parts from hot summer sun and dust in India or any other country, then it is her personal right, In fact,if a girl decides to wear burqa or any other cloth for any purpose or tradition (including religious, then it is her personal right just like she has a right to hide her other womanly assets.

However, when people combine issue of Burqa with religious freedom or right, then I get confused. I don’t know what Islam says about Burqa, but no man can produce that much heat that may cause skin burns on a girl’s face. I don’t see any logic of use of veil by any girl other than the simple logic to protect her face and other skin parts from hot sun rays, dust, dirt and pollutants.

And if a girl is trying to protect herself from pollution, then it is her right.

We in India protect our faces while driving bikes on roads against pollution, sun rays and dust by using a full-faced white veil which is certainly different from Burqa. Some political outfits tried to ban these veils here a few years ago but they failed.

They failed because we do not care for religious rights, we remain ready to die for INDIVIDUAL RIGHTS which includes the right to decide what to wear or what not to wear. By saying so, I am exactly supporting Right TO Go Nude and Exhibit everything.

Oh By the way, we Indians were the very first Nudist in this world.

http://couplewriters.blogspot.com/
lost in thought

I’ve heard there are countries that not only allow burqas but encourage it. I guess if you don’t like the way they do things in France, you could always move to a place that does more to respect your religious freedoms. Isn’t that what many people have done when they’ve been the subject of religious persecution?

At least no one’s going to get stoned to death for wearing a burqa. So that’s good.

I wonder what members of the Ku Klux Klan think about such things. I’ll bet they’re outraged that Muslims are not allowed to cover their faces.
lost in thought

I’ve heard there are countries that not only allow burqas but encourage it. I guess if you don’t like the way they do things in France, you could always move to a place that does more to respect your religious freedoms. Isn’t that what many people have done when they’ve been the subject of religious persecution?

At least no one’s going to get stoned to death for wearing a burqa. So that’s good.

I wonder what members of the Ku Klux Klan think about such things. I’ll bet they’re outraged that Muslims are not allowed to cover their faces.
http://www.newsblok.com/ newblok.com

how is this not racist? At the end of the day it always comes down to religion, thank god i’m an atheist…

and as Andrew said : “unauthorized protest?!”
- Die Freie Welt
  
  Racist? We are talking about religion here, not races. Pretty amazing that the French have finally taken a stand against this. Europe is losing it’s identity.
http://www.newsblok.com/ newblok.com

how is this not racist? At the end of the day it always comes down to religion, thank god i’m an atheist…

and as Andrew said : “unauthorized protest?!”
Kali23Yuga

May I interject in the whole debate about “religious freedom” and bring up an important point here, actually the main reason for this ban.
This is a more complex issue than just plain islamophobia that is supposedly on the rise in Europe. I too grow weary of the whole islamophobic tendencies in Europe, but this has NOTHING to do with what is going on here.
This is mainly because Americans have a whole other notion of civil society than we.

The main reason why some countries in Europe are considering a ban is, first of all, for rather practical reasons. The niqab/burqa do not make people to be recognizable in the public domain. Fugitives from the law could dress up in a niqab/burqa as well, or one could commit a crime in these clothes without ever being recognized by witnesses or the authorities.
In Belgium, my own country, they too are suggesting such a ban because of that, not because we ‘hate’ the muslims wearing this ( in fact, they are a very small minority, most muslim women don’t wear this type of clothing mind you ).
The hidjab, unlike the niqab/burqa, allow people to be recognizable and will not be banned from wearing, this is a headscarf that is allowed, and I invite you to come to my hometown and see for yourself the diversity in the streets and the large numbers of hidjabs you’ll see.

So ok, they can’t wear it outside because of that. But why can’t they wear religious symbols, at all, in public institutions?
I don’t know about you, but in Europe, the state is NEUTRAL when it comes to religion. The seperation of church and state is one of the main principles in this debate.
We do not accept Christian, Jewish, Muslim or any other religious symbols in public institutions ( all those which the embody the state ). F.e. in Parliamant, Catholic political parties aren’t allowed to wear a cross, and the same goes for any other religious symbol.
This is mainly because of our history, if some of you know it, that we have banned religion and all the symbols that express it from our public institutions.
If some Muslims are offended by this, than they forget that Christians, Jews and other confessions have followed these laws for centuries ever since the French Revolution and that they are no more privileged than them.
Kali23Yuga

May I interject in the whole debate about “religious freedom” and bring up an important point here, actually the main reason for this ban.
This is a more complex issue than just plain islamophobia that is supposedly on the rise in Europe. I too grow weary of the whole islamophobic tendencies in Europe, but this has NOTHING to do with what is going on here.
This is mainly because Americans have a whole other notion of civil society than we.

The main reason why some countries in Europe are considering a ban is, first of all, for rather practical reasons. The niqab/burqa do not make people to be recognizable in the public domain. Fugitives from the law could dress up in a niqab/burqa as well, or one could commit a crime in these clothes without ever being recognized by witnesses or the authorities.
In Belgium, my own country, they too are suggesting such a ban because of that, not because we ‘hate’ the muslims wearing this ( in fact, they are a very small minority, most muslim women don’t wear this type of clothing mind you ).
The hidjab, unlike the niqab/burqa, allow people to be recognizable and will not be banned from wearing, this is a headscarf that is allowed, and I invite you to come to my hometown and see for yourself the diversity in the streets and the large numbers of hidjabs you’ll see.

So ok, they can’t wear it outside because of that. But why can’t they wear religious symbols, at all, in public institutions?
I don’t know about you, but in Europe, the state is NEUTRAL when it comes to religion. The seperation of church and state is one of the main principles in this debate.
We do not accept Christian, Jewish, Muslim or any other religious symbols in public institutions ( all those which the embody the state ). F.e. in Parliamant, Catholic political parties aren’t allowed to wear a cross, and the same goes for any other religious symbol.
This is mainly because of our history, if some of you know it, that we have banned religion and all the symbols that express it from our public institutions.
If some Muslims are offended by this, than they forget that Christians, Jews and other confessions have followed these laws for centuries ever since the French Revolution and that they are no more privileged than them.
Die Freie Welt

Racist? We are talking about religion here, not races. Pretty amazing that the French have finally taken a stand against this. Europe is losing it’s identity.
Himmel22

@Kali,
Well thank goodness I live in America, flaws and all. I can only imagine the slippery slope arguments laws like this are so nicely putting into place. So should a Hasidic Jews be forced to cut their curls and go clean shaven because it prevents your Big-Brother-Eye-In-The-Sky from detecting exactly who they are at all times. Are you not allowed to wear seasonal protective gear, whether it be shades and a ball cap in summer or a balaclava and goggles in winter, and thereby prevent identification as well and bared from public transportation? Oh my, I fear for shopkeepers across Europe as roves of winter bandits are able to commit crimes all Willy-nilly due to the clever use of snow hats. Absurd. Our country is by no means perfect – by any stretch of the imagination – but to try and justify this kind of behavior and legislature as anything but ‘islamophobia’ is rather naïve, or at least seems to be in my opinion. In our country (and not everywhere unfortunately) a cop has to actually suspect you have committed, are committing, or are in the process of planning to commit a crime before we are even obligated to produce identification for them. You can basically ask if you are a suspect or are being detained and if the answer is ‘no’ you may tell them you are leaving. That is freedom my friend. With the bruised past parts of Europe historically have I would think you guys, above all other people, would not want a government making these kinds of rules. ~~ And then they came for me ….
- Kali23Yuga
  
  I don’t know why you’re making such a big deal out of this.
  If you knew European culture and politics you would know that church and state have been seperated here for centuries and it worked fine without anyone complaining so far.
  It’s the core of our civil society here ever since the French Revolution ( you know, that thing that got rid of absolute monarchies and feudal structures ? ).
  So calling this “Big Brother” or “bordering on fascism” is rather inaccurate… strange defintion of fascism you have there.
  
  Muslims are newcomers, and obviously some ( but not all, they just don’t get the media’s attention ) don’t know how things work here on an institutional level.
  I’m not going to claim that the legislators have a double agenda ( as in, trying to get the islamophobics to vote for their party ) but it is just basic law over here that is being applied.
  I doubt you’ve ever been to Europe. Like I said, you’ll see hidjabs all over in a regular European town, nobody complains about that. A lot of my muslim friends don’t complain about this, mind you that muslims are as diverse as any other group out there.
  
  And don’t worry, if anyone is turning into a fascist state soon it’s most likely going to be the US and their “freedom” that will eventually undermine the very fabric of their society.
  - Himmel22
    
    I suppose it is just one of those topics that hits very close to home, as a Libertarian American who holds the Constitution in very high regard. Our Constitution prevents any law “respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof”. This seems to be nothing otherwise, despite attempts to advertise it as something else. In France the laïcité was adopted in what, 1906? The concept of ‘separation of church and state’ is perhaps much older (centuries as you state) there in Europe, and perhaps the sentiment is widely shared, but I don’t seem to see it in your Constitutions (or equivalent documents) en mass. In fact, ‘Europe’ is a pretty varied area, and there are still areas where the state and church are quite fundamentally, and legally, linked (Norway, Italy). You make it sound as if Jews are forbidden from wearing Yarmulkes in public or Catholics can’t wear a cross in public. I don’t recall using the word ‘fascism’ earlier but the reference to BB was strictly in opposition to the argument that this kind of law was for public identification. Which, upon reflection, begs the question (in addition to the unanswered points regarding other identity masking forms of attire and facial hair) why on earth should everyone be identifiable for walking around in public? Who cares if I want to ride a public bus in a friggin gorilla mask as long as I have the change for the fare? I used BB in response to Europe’s (and in particular the UK) affinity for close circuit security cameras. I suppose we are a particularly free society, and such infringements of the rights of anyone are a reason for everyone to speak against it. As far as America’s freedom undermining the fabric of our society, rubbish. It is quite the opposite. If we allow our very real freedom to be eroded by actions like this, then yes we will be well on our way.
    - Kali23Yuga
      
      I never said “in public”, I said “in public institutions”. In public they can wear a cross the size of their leg around their neck.
      The fact the niqab and burqa aren’t allowed in public is because of recognizability. You can’t wear a Scream mask in public either.
      - Himmel22
        
        In our country I am not aware of any law, federal, state or otherwise, that would prevent one from wearing a Scream mask. Is that a measurment of freedom, I am not sure but it is the current state of affairs. I repeat my earlier question; where are the laws against protective attire in winter and excess facial hair preventing, or at least impairing, recognizability?
  - Fdgfdg
    
    A “country” is the people that comprise of it, regardless of their own subculture. Don’t fall for labeling it further that that. Your country is your taxcode. Aside that you are nothing but human beings interacting in their own circles. The so-called geographic boundaries that represent “America” (especially in its metropolitan areas) is a nation of many who largely accepts each other and their own independent cultures. Its a historic lesson in independence to let one do as one wishes, a belief our people hold deeply.
    - Himmel22
      
      @ FidgettyFidgetty … And a belief that, at least on a documented level of governance, is probably oldest in the USA.
- All About The Benjamins
  
  right on brother. one thing i see differently though is not as much a case of “islamophobia” but rather a case of failing to respects one’s independent culture. Sure maybe somebody may hide in a burqa, but that’s how we prioritize. its about respect and freedom first.
- E.B. Wolf
  
  “In our country (and not everywhere unfortunately) a cop has to actually suspect you have committed, are committing, or are in the process of planning to commit a crime before we are even obligated to produce identification for them.”
  What country do you live in? It certainly isn’t the U.S.
  - quartz99
    
    That’s what I was wondering. What country is that, and can I move there?
    - Himmel22
      
      The USA; your potential immigration status, however, is unknown, LOL.
  - Himmel22
    
    Actually the majority of the States in our Republic (The good ‘ol US of A) do not require you to produce ID simply because an officer requests it. Some of those allow them to ‘request’, some ‘demand’ and some ‘require’ identifying information such as your name, destination, etc… but actually 26 have no regulation regarding the issue at all. Only 6 have criminal statutes in place to impose penalties against those who refuse. That’s right, you read that correctly, in only six States is a punishable crime, in and of itself, to refuse to identify yourself to a law enforcement officer if you are NOT being detained; being accused of having committed, currently committing or in the process of planning to commit a crime. They will infallibly say something generic like … you match a description of a person doing xyz and that is a separate issue. Furthermore, it is a States’ rights issue, therefore on Federal land they are not allowed to simply pull ID’s for the fun of it, so to speak. These are you RIGHTS, now them … and use them accordingly.
Himmel22

@Kali,
Well thank goodness I live in America, flaws and all. I can only imagine the slippery slope arguments laws like this are so nicely putting into place. So should a Hasidic Jews be forced to cut their curls and go clean shaven because it prevents your Big-Brother-Eye-In-The-Sky from detecting exactly who they are at all times. Are you not allowed to wear seasonal protective gear, whether it be shades and a ball cap in summer or a balaclava and goggles in winter, and thereby prevent identification as well and bared from public transportation? Oh my, I fear for shopkeepers across Europe as roves of winter bandits are able to commit crimes all Willy-nilly due to the clever use of snow hats. Absurd. Our country is by no means perfect – by any stretch of the imagination – but to try and justify this kind of behavior and legislature as anything but ‘islamophobia’ is rather naïve, or at least seems to be in my opinion. In our country (and not everywhere unfortunately) a cop has to actually suspect you have committed, are committing, or are in the process of planning to commit a crime before we are even obligated to produce identification for them. You can basically ask if you are a suspect or are being detained and if the answer is ‘no’ you may tell them you are leaving. That is freedom my friend. With the bruised past parts of Europe historically have I would think you guys, above all other people, would not want a government making these kinds of rules. ~~ And then they came for me ….
Kali23Yuga

I don’t know why you’re making such a big deal out of this.
If you knew European culture and politics you would know that church and state have been seperated here for centuries and it worked fine without anyone complaining so far.
It’s the core of our civil society here ever since the French Revolution ( you know, that thing that got rid of absolute monarchies and feudal structures ? ).
So calling this “Big Brother” or “bordering on fascism” is rather inaccurate… strange defintion of fascism you have there.

Muslims are newcomers, and obviously some ( but not all, they just don’t get the media’s attention ) don’t know how things work here on an institutional level.
I’m not going to claim that the legislators have a double agenda ( as in, trying to get the islamophobics to vote for their party ) but it is just basic law over here that is being applied.
I doubt you’ve ever been to Europe. Like I said, you’ll see hidjabs all over in a regular European town, nobody complains about that. A lot of my muslim friends don’t complain about this, mind you that muslims are as diverse as any other group out there.

And don’t worry, if anyone is turning into a fascist state soon it’s most likely going to be the US and their “freedom” that will eventually undermine the very fabric of their society.
Himmel22

I suppose it is just one of those topics that hits very close to home, as a Libertarian American who holds the Constitution in very high regard. Our Constitution prevents any law “respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof”. This seems to be nothing otherwise, despite attempts to advertise it as something else. In France the laïcité was adopted in what, 1906? The concept of ‘separation of church and state’ is perhaps much older (centuries as you state) there in Europe, and perhaps the sentiment is widely shared, but I don’t seem to see it in your Constitutions (or equivalent documents) en mass. In fact, ‘Europe’ is a pretty varied area, and there are still areas where the state and church are quite fundamentally, and legally, linked (Norway, Italy). You make it sound as if Jews are forbidden from wearing Yarmulkes in public or Catholics can’t wear a cross in public. I don’t recall using the word ‘fascism’ earlier but the reference to BB was strictly in opposition to the argument that this kind of law was for public identification. Which, upon reflection, begs the question (in addition to the unanswered points regarding other identity masking forms of attire and facial hair) why on earth should everyone be identifiable for walking around in public? Who cares if I want to ride a public bus in a friggin gorilla mask as long as I have the change for the fare? I used BB in response to Europe’s (and in particular the UK) affinity for close circuit security cameras. I suppose we are a particularly free society, and such infringements of the rights of anyone are a reason for everyone to speak against it. As far as America’s freedom undermining the fabric of our society, rubbish. It is quite the opposite. If we allow our very real freedom to be eroded by actions like this, then yes we will be well on our way.
Fdgfdg

A “country” is the people that comprise of it, regardless of their own subculture. Don’t fall for labeling it further that that. Your country is your taxcode. Aside that you are nothing but human beings interacting in their own circles. The so-called geographic boundaries that represent “America” (especially in its metropolitan areas) is a nation of many who largely accepts each other and their own independent cultures. Its a historic lesson in independence to let one do as one wishes, a belief our people hold deeply.
Himmel22

@ FidgettyFidgetty … And a belief that, at least on a documented level of governance, is probably oldest in the USA.
All About The Benjamins

right on brother. one thing i see differently though is not as much a case of “islamophobia” but rather a case of failing to respects one’s independent culture. Sure maybe somebody may hide in a burqa, but that’s how we prioritize. its about respect and freedom first.
Kali23Yuga

I never said “in public”, I said “in public institutions”. In public they can wear a cross the size of their leg around their neck.
The fact the niqab and burqa aren’t allowed in public is because of recognizability. You can’t wear a Scream mask in public either.
Rex Nebular

Hello, I live in Paris and those two womans were indeed arrested for unauthorized protest in the street. The hilarious thing is that no policeman ask them to take off their burqa during the custody! The two women leaved after 2 hours without being charged for anything.
Moreover, all the police syndicates told the press that this law were unapplicable. The french policemen have other things to do than to watch after women wearing burqas.
Rex Nebular

Hello, I live in Paris and those two womans were indeed arrested for unauthorized protest in the street. The hilarious thing is that no policeman ask them to take off their burqa during the custody! The two women leaved after 2 hours without being charged for anything.
Moreover, all the police syndicates told the press that this law were unapplicable. The french policemen have other things to do than to watch after women wearing burqas.
Bud Bundy

Well, some of those women could be Ninja. Clearly something the resident Daimyo is worried about.

I for one welcome our new Ninja overlords.
Bud Bundy

Well, some of those women could be Ninja. Clearly something the resident Daimyo is worried about.

I for one welcome our new Ninja overlords.
E.B. Wolf

“In our country (and not everywhere unfortunately) a cop has to actually suspect you have committed, are committing, or are in the process of planning to commit a crime before we are even obligated to produce identification for them.”
What country do you live in? It certainly isn’t the U.S.
Rooti

Good for France! The burqa is a symbol of how stupid religious belief is.
Rooti

Good for France! The burqa is a symbol of how stupid religious belief is.
Anonymous

That’s what I was wondering. What country is that, and can I move there?
Rufus

Its not about that at all. France is clearly afraid of Ninjas and can’t tell the difference, so they have to arrest anyone who is dressed like the photo used in this story. Ninjaphobia, look it up.
Himmel22

Actually the majority of the States in our Republic (The good ‘ol US of A) do not require you to produce ID simply because an officer requests it. Some of those allow them to ‘request’, some ‘demand’ and some ‘require’ identifying information such as your name, destination, etc… but actually 26 have no regulation regarding the issue at all. Only 6 have criminal statutes in place to impose penalties against those who refuse. That’s right, you read that correctly, in only six States is a punishable crime, in and of itself, to refuse to identify yourself to a law enforcement officer if you are NOT being detained; being accused of having committed, currently committing or in the process of planning to commit a crime. They will infallibly say something generic like … you match a description of a person doing xyz and that is a separate issue. Furthermore, it is a States’ rights issue, therefore on Federal land they are not allowed to simply pull ID’s for the fun of it, so to speak. These are you RIGHTS, now them … and use them accordingly.
Himmel22

The USA; your potential immigration status, however, is unknown, LOL.
Himmel22

In our country I am not aware of any law, federal, state or otherwise, that would prevent one from wearing a Scream mask. Is that a measurment of freedom, I am not sure but it is the current state of affairs. I repeat my earlier question; where are the laws against protective attire in winter and excess facial hair preventing, or at least impairing, recognizability?
http://hormeticminds.blogspot.com/ Chaorder Gradient

Seriously ninjas will mess you up before you even knew anyone was behind you… wait… what was that–
http://voxmagi-necessarywords.blogspot.com/ VoxMagi

female ninjas…the sluttiest mammals known to man!!! we can only gain by welcoming them!!!
Talmadge613

American rednecks and xenophobes must be furious that the French government is more intolerant of Islam than America.
Talmadge613

American rednecks and xenophobes must be furious that the French government is more intolerant of Islam than America.
Dom

Seeing as the whole cover your face thing is due to a mistranslation it can only be a good thing. The passage is actually asking women to guard their chastitity….. and the doe eyed virgins waiting for martyrs are really just a bunch of grapes. £:¬)
Dom

Seeing as the whole cover your face thing is due to a mistranslation it can only be a good thing. The passage is actually asking women to guard their chastitity….. and the doe eyed virgins waiting for martyrs are really just a bunch of grapes. £:¬)