Atheist Group Sues Over ‘Ground Zero Cross’ At 9/11 Memorial

Ground Zero CrossReports the Associated Press via the Wall Street Journal:

NEW YORK — The installation of a cross-shaped steel beam at the Sept. 11 memorial at ground zero is unconstitutional, a national atheist group argued in a lawsuit filed Wednesday, asking a judge to order it removed or request that other religions and nonreligious views be equally represented at the site.

The museum is a public institution and should not reflect a specific religion, said the American Atheists, a nonprofit group aimed at safeguarding separation of church and state that filed the civil lawsuit in Manhattan State Supreme Court.

The cross was found amid the wreckage from the Sept. 11 terrorist attacks by a construction worker who said he stumbled onto a miracle. It was moved to the ground zero site last weekend from a temporary post after a blessing by a Catholic priest and is to become part of the permanent collection of the National September 11th Memorial and Museum. The memorial will open this year on the 10th anniversary of the attack; the museum, which is mostly underground, will open next year.

The Rev. Brian Jordan, who was instrumental in the preservation of the cross, celebrated Mass under the twisted steel beams and said people from other religions came to pray collectively. He said the 2-ton, 20-foot-high T-beam provided comfort to hundreds of suffering people — and continues to do so.

Read More: Associated Press via the Wall Street Journal

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  • Random Excess

    Many get comfort from pot, that is illegal too

  • Random Excess

    Many get comfort from pot, that is illegal too

  • Malk

    many people may get comfort from it, many people may also take offense to it. the whole argument is “separation of church and state” which is supposed to be one of America’s great virtues, religious freedom and all that freedom jazz. not, white christians are the majority so we’ll just cater to them, but ya…

    the argument is sound is my opinion, but some how these always seem to take a lot of heat.
    would be neat to see some sort of art incorporating various religions of the world/victims in a mirage display of some sort. Do the atheists have a symbol? haha…

    or better yet, how about someone tells the truth about 9/11, that’d be pretty cool too XD

  • Malk

    many people may get comfort from it, many people may also take offense to it. the whole argument is “separation of church and state” which is supposed to be one of America’s great virtues, religious freedom and all that freedom jazz. not, white christians are the majority so we’ll just cater to them, but ya…

    the argument is sound is my opinion, but some how these always seem to take a lot of heat.
    would be neat to see some sort of art incorporating various religions of the world/victims in a mirage display of some sort. Do the atheists have a symbol? haha…

    or better yet, how about someone tells the truth about 9/11, that’d be pretty cool too XD

    • http://www.sacredgeometryinternational.com/ Sacred Geometry International

      Yes.  And if Christians want to feel really really christian why not listen to the profound christ like testimony of Professor David Ray Griffin, Christian Theologian and 9/11 Truth researcher extraordinaire. Then follow in his example and question empire and the role of falseflag terrorism in creating hegemonic power over the world.

      What Would Jesus Do About 9/11 Truth?  

      WWJDA911T!  

      • Tuna Ghost

        What Would Jesus Do About 9/11 Truth?

        He would probably say “leave me out it, I have enough idiots dragging my name into their bullshit”. 

        • Honu

          If Jesus even existed which the historical evidence doesn’t seem to indicate.  Uh oh…did I open that box?!

          • Tuna Ghost

            Ya gotta throw Socrates into that box too, which people seem reluctant to do…anyway, I’m not sure why people have such a hard time believing that a Jewish teacher and lived and taught in that area at that time, had a ministry for a bit, and was tried and executed for sedition against Rome, and then had his actions talked up a bit.  Seems pretty likely to me.   

    • Illusion of Truth

      These groups who believe religion should not be ANYWHERE, sure do not have a problem spending legal tender with I God We Trust printed on it! (Simple minded people do simple minded things)!

      • quartz99

        There have been calls to remove that stupid religious slogan from the money too. It’s not that we think it shouldn’t be “anywhere” it’s that we think you should keep it to privately-funded spaces (you know, your church, where it belongs) instead of using OUR tax money to keep putting up symbols of YOUR religion. In publicly funded spaces it should be all-inclusive or not at all. So if you’re going to put up a cross you need the jewish star, an islamic symbol, some hindi symbols, buddhist, wiccan, the many different flavors of reconstructionist paganism, etc etc. People under all those other faiths pay taxes too and it’s just as much our space as yours. In this case, people of all those faiths — and some atheists too *gasp!* — died on the site. It’s an insult to their families that you’re trying to advertise your religion on that spot.

        • Tuna Ghost

          Well like the article says: 

          The cross is being displayed in the museum not because of its religious value, but rather the role it played in the tragedy, and other religions would be represented, museum officials said

          Had workers found an intact statue of Shiva in the rubble, I’m sure it would have been included.  Its just that a cross is pretty goddam easy to “find” amid rubble, and there’s no denying that many people gave it significance during that time.  Given these facts, why shouldn’t it be included?  Its not advertising the religion, its part of a museum exhibit about events in the area after the attacks.  

      • Tuna Ghost

        Yes, they do.  There have been numerous attempts to have it removed.  To suggest that they would or should stop using money since it has “God” printed on it is, well, patently fucking stupid.  

  • Tuna Ghost

    The cross was found amid the wreckage from the Sept. 11 terrorist attacks by a construction worker who said he stumbled onto a miracle.

    Yeah intersecting I-beams found in the wreckage of a building that had hundreds if not thousands of them, what are the odds.  

    This case seems a lot stronger than the one against Rick Perry and his prayer meetings.

    • Tuna Ghost

      Well, never let it be said I can’t admit that I’m wrong–I gotta change my mind on this, the case is as weak as the one against Perry.  From the article:

      The cross is being displayed in the museum not because of its religious value, but rather the role it played in the tragedy, and other religions would be represented, museum officials said

      Seems legit to me, now that I investigate further (by which I mean “actually read the article”).  

    • cakey pig

      “Yeah intersecting I-beams found in the wreckage of a building that had hundreds if not thousands of them, what are the odds.”
      Hahahahahaha my sentiments entirely.

  • Tuna Ghost

    The cross was found amid the wreckage from the Sept. 11 terrorist attacks by a construction worker who said he stumbled onto a miracle.

    Yeah intersecting I-beams found in the wreckage of a building that had hundreds if not thousands of them, what are the odds.  

    This case seems a lot stronger than the one against Rick Perry and his prayer meetings.

  • SF2K01

    I’m not xtian and I’m not offended that they want to put up a cross. Probably because I’m not a dick trying to ruin everyone’s good time. If they prevent a group from asking to put up a symbol for theirs, then I’ll get pissed. Till then this Athiest group should buzz off unless they want to ironically suggest a symbol for atheism.

    Also bs is their request for other views to be equally represented. Why should it be equal? People didn’t die in equal proportions. Are they going to sue the Arlington cemetery next for having too many crosses and not an equal amount of other symbols?

    • Tuna Ghost

      Also bs is their request for other views to be equally represented. Why should it be equal?

      I’m curious as to how they’d be “equally” represented–what method are they using to measure representation?  

      People didn’t die in equal proportions.

      I’m not sure why that makes a difference.  This goes back to how they would measure representation–what are they gonna do, have the religious symbols be an inch higher per victim of that faith?  I mean, really, what is the argument against equal representation?   

      • SF2K01

        I’ll give them the benefit of the doubt and assume they meant equal representation in that any group affected should be able to have a symbol. That I agree with. Equal representation, however, is often a code word for complete and equal time/space, etc given to every group, and that simply doesn’t make much sense in this context. Even more complicated is if the groups overlap.

  • Anonymous

    I’m not xtian and I’m not offended that they want to put up a cross. Probably because I’m not a dick trying to ruin everyone’s good time. If they prevent a group from asking to put up a symbol for theirs, then I’ll get pissed. Till then this Athiest group should buzz off unless they want to ironically suggest a symbol for atheism.

    Also bs is their request for other views to be equally represented. Why should it be equal? People didn’t die in equal proportions. Are they going to sue the Arlington cemetery next for having too many crosses and not an equal amount of other symbols?

  • Tuna Ghost

    Well, never let it be said I can’t admit that I’m wrong–I gotta change my mind on this, the case is as weak as the one against Perry.  From the article:

    The cross is being displayed in the museum not because of its religious value, but rather the role it played in the tragedy, and other religions would be represented, museum officials said

    Seems legit to me, now that I investigate further (by which I mean “actually read the article”).  

  • Tuna Ghost

    Also bs is their request for other views to be equally represented. Why should it be equal?

    I’m curious as to how they’d be “equally” represented–what method are they using to measure representation?  

    People didn’t die in equal proportions.

    I’m not sure why that makes a difference.  This goes back to how they would measure representation–what are they gonna do, have the religious symbols be an inch higher per victim of that faith?  I mean, really, what is the argument against equal representation?   

  • Tuna Ghost

    Also bs is their request for other views to be equally represented. Why should it be equal?

    I’m curious as to how they’d be “equally” represented–what method are they using to measure representation?  

    People didn’t die in equal proportions.

    I’m not sure why that makes a difference.  This goes back to how they would measure representation–what are they gonna do, have the religious symbols be an inch higher per victim of that faith?  I mean, really, what is the argument against equal representation?   

  • Anonymous

    “Yeah intersecting I-beams found in the wreckage of a building that had hundreds if not thousands of them, what are the odds.”
    Hahahahahaha my sentiments entirely.

  • David Tiffany

    No matter how many times you ask a judge to “order” a symbol of our Lord Jesus Christ to be removed, Jesus will still be installed as King on Zion, you will still bow before Him, and you will still confess that He is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.  http://atheistlegitimacy.blogspot.com/

    • http://thefirstchurchofmutterhals.blogspot.com/ mutterhals

      Ha ha ha, oooh boy, that was good.

    • Ryanc561

      God isn’t real. Get over it.

    • http://twitter.com/Goat777Face Daniel Crowley

      well then, if that’s the case, Christians wont mind taking down this cross? What was is St Paul said about deferrence to the one with scruples? I’m sure it’s in your bible somewhere…

    • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_5CP7ED2OJWP2WRKAIRKKWFU6EQ Choice

      well like one little girl in New Orleans said after Katrina… “thank you Jesus for sparing my life while you killed my family”

    • Tuna Ghost

      Hmmm yes but until that happens, how about we focus on more earthly concerns?  You know, religious rights, separation of church and state, things that affect us at this very moment?  

  • Guest

    Telling them to take down their cross is the mosque at ground zero argument all over again. They are allowed to put their cross there…I’m sure it gives some people a sense of hope and encouragement. While I understand that it offends people, I don’t give a fuck if you’re offended. Just because atheists don’t have a symbol (that I am aware of) doesn’t mean that the way to be represented is to remove all things that remind them of christians. Equal religious groups should be represented there, and while I don’t have much hope for that actually happening, I also don’t think it should be forced upon anyone. I am offended by a fair amount of things I see on a daily basis, but that doesn’t mean I want to force my discomfort onto other people.

    • G3artist

      Finally, an intelligent response to all of this kind of nonsense.
      Thanks for that.

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/David-Tiffany/100001926356049 David Tiffany

    No matter how many times you ask a judge to “order” a symbol of our Lord Jesus Christ to be removed, Jesus will still be installed as King on Zion, you will still bow before Him, and you will still confess that He is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.  http://atheistlegitimacy.blogspot.com/

  • Guest

    Telling them to take down their cross is the mosque at ground zero argument all over again. They are allowed to put their cross there…I’m sure it gives some people a sense of hope and encouragement. While I understand that it offends people, I don’t give a fuck if you’re offended. Just because atheists don’t have a symbol (that I am aware of) doesn’t mean that the way to be represented is to remove all things that remind them of christians. Equal religious groups should be represented there, and while I don’t have much hope for that actually happening, I also don’t think it should be forced upon anyone. I am offended by a fair amount of things I see on a daily basis, but that doesn’t mean I want to force my discomfort onto other people.

  • http://thefirstchurchofmutterhals.blogspot.com/ mutterhals

    Ha ha ha, oooh boy, that was good.

  • Rest

    Anyone who suggests that this is a lower case “t” for “Taliban” is quite simply wrong.

  • Rest

    Anyone who suggests that this is a lower case “t” for “Taliban” is quite simply wrong.

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/Camron-Wiltshire/510662346 Camron Wiltshire

    Yes.  And if Christians want to feel really really christian why not listen to the profound christ like testimony of Professor David Ray Griffin, Christian Theologian and 9/11 Truth researcher extraordinaire. Then follow in his example and question empire and the role of falseflag terrorism in creating hegemonic power over the world.

    What Would Jesus Do About 9/11 Truth?  

    WWJDA911T!  

  • bobbiethejean

    Meh. As an atheist myself, I think they should just leave this one alone. The way we ensure separation of church and state is not by nitpicking individual idiocies like this, but by changing people’s minds overall so that they wouldn’t want to put of a cross in the first place. 

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/Bobbie-Jean-Pentecost/100000391760333 Bobbie Jean Pentecost

    Meh. As an atheist myself, I think they should just leave this one alone. The way we ensure separation of church and state is not by nitpicking individual idiocies like this, but by changing people’s minds overall so that they wouldn’t want to put of a cross in the first place. 

  • Illusion of Truth

    I am going to sue the atheists for everywhere there isn’t a cross! LOL!

  • Illusion of Truth

    I am going to sue the atheists for everywhere there isn’t a cross! LOL!

  • Illusion of Truth

    These groups who believe religion should not be ANYWHERE, sure do not have a problem spending legal tender with I God We Trust printed on it! (Simple minded people do simple minded things)!

  • DeepCough

    People need to get it through their heads that “Ground Zero” is not a fucking holy site, it was a site of one of the worst attacks on the U.S. (nevermind who the culprits were in this context), and I find it very distasteful that a coincidental crucifix found in the wreckage be used as a symbol for the 9/11 memorial, because, well, if I remember the Jesus story correctly, the crucifix was an ancient device of torture and death!

    • Tuna Ghost

      Its not being used as a symbol for the 9/11 memorial.  Read the article.  Its not being used as a religious icon of any kind.  Its just a museum piece.  

      • DeepCough

        When you put certain symbols with heavy religious connotation and value on top of a building, you are de facto declaring that building a temple or place of religious worship, much in the same manner as putting up a British flag on a ship’s mast would give it the identity of a British maritime vessel. And according to the article itself, the steel cross-beam WAS used to conduct religious ceremonies. Conflating religion with the “War on Terror” has brought the U.S. even more pain and suffering than the terrorist attacks of September 11, 2001, and because of that, there is still no end in sight 10 years after the fact.

        • Tuna Ghost

          When you put certain symbols with heavy religious connotation and value on top of a building, you are de facto declaring that building a temple or place of religious worship,

          Not necessarily.  While a religious symbol on top of a building would most definitely suggest to everyone that the building is associated with said religion, it wouldn’t necessarily have to be a place of worship.  Christian bookstores are occasionally topped with crosses.  This may seem pendantic and I want you to know I see the point you’re making, I really do, but I’ll demonstrate in a minute why it doesn’t apply to this particular case.

           …much in the same manner as putting up a British flag on a ship’s mast would give it the identity of a British maritime vessel.  

          (These two cases have nothing to do with each other, btw.)  

          Anyway.  Back on topic.  The picture above may make it seem like the cross has been placed atop the museum, but I very much doubt that is the case.  It’s 20 feet tall and weighs two tons.  It is set into a concrete base and I very much  doubt (in fact I have seen no evidence) that it is on top of the museum.  It is part of a collection of objects.  The fact that it was used for religious purposes is also irrelevant, unless you think it has physically retained some sort of spiritual-ness that will infect the rest of the museum, in which case you have some strange ideas about the physical properties of religious icons.  The cross no more suggests a religious affiliation than a Hermetic Priest’s staff in the London Museum suggests an affiliation with Hermeticism, or Egyptian religious artifacts suggests that the British Government is endorsing a belief in Ra or Horus or whomever.  

          So.  Its not on the museum where one would normally see a cross on a church.  Its in the museum.  Given these facts, do you still have a problem with it?  

          • DeepCough

            On some points, I may very well be mistaken, but that doesn’t change the fact that the coincidental crucifix is a useless artifact of the 9/11 attacks.

          • Anubisdrake

            For one thing it being used in a religious ceremony does give it the property that people from that faith can now consider it a sacred and blessed object, at least in their minds giving it and by proxy them special status.
            For another as you said “It’s 20 feet tall and weighs two tons” and “It is set into a concrete base and I very much  doubt (in fact I have seen no evidence) that it is on top of the museum.” When as a matter of fact the article says this “the museum, which is mostly underground”and the image shown DOES NOT show that cross to be underground. That is a 2 Ton cross, with a who knows how heavy cement base, ON TOP of the museum.
            Given those facts I do have a problem with it.

    • Gregpettijohn

      The cross was used to torture and kill…It is chosen as a symbol to remember that Jesus Christ died under the burden of our sins, and that he did this so that our souls can live in eternity in heaven.  He died on this torturous cross…

  • DeepCough

    People need to get it through their heads that “Ground Zero” is not a fucking holy site, it was a site of one of the worst attacks on the U.S. (nevermind who the culprits were in this context), and I find it very distasteful that a coincidental crucifix found in the wreckage be used as a symbol for the 9/11 memorial, because, well, if I remember the Jesus story correctly, the crucifix was an ancient device of torture and death!

  • Anonymous

    There have been calls to remove that stupid religious slogan from the money too. It’s not that we think it shouldn’t be “anywhere” it’s that we think you should keep it to privately-funded spaces (you know, your church, where it belongs) instead of using OUR tax money to keep putting up symbols of YOUR religion. In publicly funded spaces it should be all-inclusive or not at all. So if you’re going to put up a cross you need the jewish star, an islamic symbol, some hindi symbols, buddhist, wiccan, the many different flavors of reconstructionist paganism, etc etc. People under all those other faiths pay taxes too and it’s just as much our space as yours. In this case, people of all those faiths — and some atheists too *gasp!* — died on the site. It’s an insult to their families that you’re trying to advertise your religion on that spot.

  • steve

    If it were the star of David, the atheists would be labled as anti-semites…………..

  • Anonymous

    nice story

  • steve

    If it were the star of David, the atheists would be labled as anti-semites…………..

  • Ryanc561

    God isn’t real. Get over it.

  • BaphometRex666

    Christians aren’t the only people that died in this tragedy.
    Jews, Buddhists, Hindus, Sikhs, Muslims and Atheists also died in this tragedy.
    The symbol of the cross only represents Christians.
    The only symbol that should be allowed to represent this horror is the tears in the eyes of the survivors.

    • BaphometRex666

      I suggest a fountain and call it “The Fountain of Tears” this would represent us all, equally.

    • Tuna Ghost

      The cross isn’t representing 9/11, the memorial, or performing as a religious icon.  Its a museum piece.  

    • It’sTheAmericanWay

      You are correct on your points. However, I think if you read the story about how it was found and how it was used, you will notice that it and the services that ensued at the site, served as rallying point for people of all faiths and without. Just a way to share in daily fellowship in the face of the disaster for those who were doing the arduous and thankless task of cleaning up the site. It specifically mentions this in the article here  http://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/911-memorials-the-story-of-the-cross-at-ground-zero/2011/09/07/gIQA2mMXDK_story.html

  • BaphometRex666

    Christians aren’t the only people that died in this tragedy.
    Jews, Buddhists, Hindus, Sikhs, Muslims and Atheists also died in this tragedy.
    The symbol of the cross only represents Christians.
    The only symbol that should be allowed to represent this horror is the tears in the eyes of the survivors.

  • http://twitter.com/Danny777James Danny James

    well then, if that’s the case, Christians wont mind taking down this cross? What was is St Paul said about deferrence to the one with scruples? I’m sure it’s in your bible somewhere…

  • http://twitter.com/Goat777Face Daniel Crowley

    It’s insulting to those non-Christians who died there. How about a secular monument like a cenotaph or obelisk -you know, one that honours the memory of the people who died rather than some invisible man in the sky who is all-powerful, yet decides to let horrible acts of violence occur in his name…?

    • Tuna Ghost

      The cross is not actually performing the duties of a religious icon anymore than a Gutenberg Bible in the Smithsonian is.  This is a museum piece in an exhibit about the events that occurred after the attacks.  

    • Poohememe9

      God doesn’t let horrible things happen to people. It’s satan who is the ruler of this world, that takes controls of ones mind causing them to do the unthinkable to others.  Maybe if u would read your bible, u’ll see God is of love and satan is the one who comes to (kill,steal & destroy). U probablly don’t believe thier is a devil, think again.  I’m not here to judge anyone. but I sure would hate to die one day and wake up n the burning fires of hell.  Marion of MO.

      • OLDSKOOL

        maybe if u read your Bible, you would see the your God is the one that does the killing! Satan was only allowed to kill Job’s family with God’s permission. Global floods, mass killings of anyone who gets in Gods way or sows different seeds, mixes fabrics, works the sabbath etc. Is under your Gods law.

        • BaphometRex666

          Great Job OLDSKOOL!
          Keep pointing out the Emperor is naked!

  • Liquidself2004

    Really?  Attacking the 911 memorial institution for having a cross shaped I beam in it?  One would think the atheistic view would be it doesnt matter if it’s there since it doesnt represent anything.  Atheisism is as much a partisan religion as any other irrational belief system.  But really, it s much easier and better publicity wise to attack a museum than take the President to court everytime his mentions God. 

  • http://twitter.com/Danny777James Danny James

    It’s insulting to those non-Christians who died there. How about a secular monument like a cenotaph or obelisk -you know, one that honours the memory of the people who died rather than some invisible man in the sky who is all-powerful, yet decides to let horrible acts of violence occur in his name…?

  • Liquidself2004

    Really?  Attacking the 911 memorial institution for having a cross shaped I beam in it?  One would think the atheistic view would be it doesnt matter if it’s there since it doesnt represent anything.  Atheisism is as much a partisan religion as any other irrational belief system.  But really, it s much easier and better publicity wise to attack a museum than take the President to court everytime his mentions God. 

  • jasonpaulhayes

    We’ve a murdering god to replace all of these
    With the blood of forgiveness you too can be free
    Or the wrath of Jehovah you’re sure to receive
    We will baptize you with the blood of the lamb
    With the sword and the gospel we will conquer your land
    You will join our church and be glad to be saved
    Or we’ll slaughter your children and women we’ll rape

    Corporate Avenger – Christians Murdered Indians

  • http://twitter.com/jasonpaulhayes jasonpaulhayes

    We’ve a murdering god to replace all of these
    With the blood of forgiveness you too can be free
    Or the wrath of Jehovah you’re sure to receive
    We will baptize you with the blood of the lamb
    With the sword and the gospel we will conquer your land
    You will join our church and be glad to be saved
    Or we’ll slaughter your children and women we’ll rape

    Corporate Avenger – Christians Murdered Indians

  • G3artist

    Finally, an intelligent response to all of this kind of nonsense.
    Thanks for that.

  • BaphometRex666

    I suggest a fountain and call it “The Fountain of Tears” this would represent us all, equally.

  • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_5CP7ED2OJWP2WRKAIRKKWFU6EQ Choice

    JEEZ… in all that mess, they didn’t stumble onto a MADONNA symbol?  That’s inconceivable.  They just weren’t looking very hard… ROFL

  • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_5CP7ED2OJWP2WRKAIRKKWFU6EQ Choice

    JEEZ… in all that mess, they didn’t stumble onto a MADONNA symbol?  That’s inconceivable.  They just weren’t looking very hard… ROFL

  • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_5CP7ED2OJWP2WRKAIRKKWFU6EQ Choice

    well like one little girl in New Orleans said after Katrina… “thank you Jesus for sparing my life while you killed my family”

  • Tuna Ghost

    Hmmm yes but until that happens, how about we focus on more earthly concerns?  You know, religious rights, separation of church and state, things that affect us at this very moment?  

  • Tuna Ghost

    What Would Jesus Do About 9/11 Truth?

    He would probably say “leave me out it, I have enough idiots dragging my name into their bullshit”. 

  • Tuna Ghost

    Well like the article says: 

    The cross is being displayed in the museum not because of its religious value, but rather the role it played in the tragedy, and other religions would be represented, museum officials said

    Had workers found an intact statue of Shiva in the rubble, I’m sure it would have been included.  Its just that a cross is pretty goddam easy to “find” amid rubble, and there’s no denying that many people gave it significance during that time.  Given these facts, why shouldn’t it be included?  Its not advertising the religion, its part of a museum exhibit about events in the area after the attacks.  

  • Anonymous

    I’ll give them the benefit of the doubt and assume they meant equal representation in that any group affected should be able to have a symbol. That I agree with. Equal representation, however, is often a code word for complete and equal time/space, etc given to every group, and that simply doesn’t make much sense in this context. Even more complicated is if the groups overlap.

  • Anonymous

    I’ll give them the benefit of the doubt and assume they meant equal representation in that any group affected should be able to have a symbol. That I agree with. Equal representation, however, is often a code word for complete and equal time/space, etc given to every group, and that simply doesn’t make much sense in this context. Even more complicated is if the groups overlap.

  • Tuna Ghost

    The cross is not actually performing the duties of a religious icon anymore than a Gutenberg Bible in the Smithsonian is.  This is a museum piece in an exhibit about the events that occurred after the attacks.  

  • Tuna Ghost

    The cross is not actually performing the duties of a religious icon anymore than a Gutenberg Bible in the Smithsonian is.  This is a museum piece in an exhibit about the events that occurred after the attacks.  

  • Tuna Ghost

    Its not being used as a symbol for the 9/11 memorial.  Read the article.  Its not being used as a religious icon of any kind.  Its just a museum piece.  

  • Tuna Ghost

    Its not being used as a symbol for the 9/11 memorial.  Read the article.  Its not being used as a religious icon of any kind.  Its just a museum piece.  

  • Tuna Ghost

    Yes, they do.  There have been numerous attempts to have it removed.  To suggest that they would or should stop using money since it has “God” printed on it is, well, patently fucking stupid.  

  • Tuna Ghost

    The cross isn’t representing 9/11, the memorial, or performing as a religious icon.  Its a museum piece.  

  • Tuna Ghost

    The cross isn’t representing 9/11, the memorial, or performing as a religious icon.  Its a museum piece.  

  • Carlos Panzram

    I’ve got to be honest, the older I get I seem to be just as annoyed by atheists as fundamentalist Christians. If you don’t want to see something, close your eyes. Either Random Chance or God gave you eyelids out of utility, use them.

    • hawaiiguy

      Sadly, 90+% of Americans have used their eyelids as blinders to the rape and corruption before, during and after 9/11. Its actually time to safety pin the eyelids wide open and go after the Larry Silversteins, Murdochs, Bushes, Cantors and all the other ilk that are profiting from a wag the dog event like 9/11. 
      19 uneducated non-pilot terrorists took down 3 skyscrapers my ass! They (the 3 planes) were the first large scale drones used to start a war at the expense of all the world, Atheists, and all other religious affiliates as well.

  • http://www.facebook.com/Carlospanzram Carlos Panzram

    I’ve got to be honest, the older I get I seem to be just as annoyed by atheists as fundamentalist Christians. If you don’t want to see something, close your eyes. Either Random Chance or God gave you eyelids out of utility, use them.

  • DeepCough

    When you put certain symbols with heavy religious connotation and value on top of a building, you are de facto declaring that building a temple or place of religious worship, much in the same manner as putting up a British flag on a ship’s mast would give it the identity of a British maritime vessel. And according to the article itself, the steel cross-beam WAS used to conduct religious ceremonies. Conflating religion with the “War on Terror” has brought the U.S. even more pain and suffering than the terrorist attacks of September 11, 2001, and because of that, there is still no end in sight 10 years after the fact.

  • Penguins4life

    I dont agree with the Atheist belief but whatever. However I do agree that religion should be separate from state. And they are also right to say that all religious groups should be equally represented. Many people died in the attack and they ALL were not christian. There also Muslims that died too (and Im not talking about the so called attackers) so where is their recognition? And im sure there are other groups out there that were attacked too. So if they want their cross their, rep everyone else, or take it down.

  • Penguins4life

    I dont agree with the Atheist belief but whatever. However I do agree that religion should be separate from state. And they are also right to say that all religious groups should be equally represented. Many people died in the attack and they ALL were not christian. There also Muslims that died too (and Im not talking about the so called attackers) so where is their recognition? And im sure there are other groups out there that were attacked too. So if they want their cross their, rep everyone else, or take it down.

  • Penguins4life

    I dont agree with the Atheist belief but whatever. However I do agree that religion should be separate from state. And they are also right to say that all religious groups should be equally represented. Many people died in the attack and they ALL were not christian. There also Muslims that died too (and Im not talking about the so called attackers) so where is their recognition? And im sure there are other groups out there that were attacked too. So if they want their cross their, rep everyone else, or take it down.

  • Penguins4life

    I dont agree with the Atheist belief but whatever. However I do agree that religion should be separate from state. And they are also right to say that all religious groups should be equally represented. Many people died in the attack and they ALL were not christian. There also Muslims that died too (and Im not talking about the so called attackers) so where is their recognition? And im sure there are other groups out there that were attacked too. So if they want their cross their, rep everyone else, or take it down.

  • Penguins4life

    I dont agree with the Atheist belief but whatever. However I do agree that religion should be separate from state. And they are also right to say that all religious groups should be equally represented. Many people died in the attack and they ALL were not christian. There also Muslims that died too (and Im not talking about the so called attackers) so where is their recognition? And im sure there are other groups out there that were attacked too. So if they want their cross their, rep everyone else, or take it down.

  • Penguins4life

    I dont agree with the Atheist belief but whatever. However I do agree that religion should be separate from state. And they are also right to say that all religious groups should be equally represented. Many people died in the attack and they ALL were not christian. There also Muslims that died too (and Im not talking about the so called attackers) so where is their recognition? And im sure there are other groups out there that were attacked too. So if they want their cross their, rep everyone else, or take it down.

  • Godsbittersalt

    Would have been a better miracle if g*d actually cared enough to stop the planes.

  • Godsbittersalt

    Would have been a better miracle if g*d actually cared enough to stop the planes.

  • Tuna Ghost

    When you put certain symbols with heavy religious connotation and value on top of a building, you are de facto declaring that building a temple or place of religious worship,

    Not necessarily.  While a religious symbol on top of a building would most definitely suggest to everyone that the building is associated with said religion, it wouldn’t necessarily have to be a place of worship.  Christian bookstores are occasionally topped with crosses.  This may seem pendantic and I want you to know I see the point you’re making, I really do, but I’ll demonstrate in a minute why it doesn’t apply to this particular case.

     …much in the same manner as putting up a British flag on a ship’s mast would give it the identity of a British maritime vessel.  

    (These two cases have nothing to do with each other, btw.)  

    Anyway.  Back on topic.  The picture above may make it seem like the cross has been placed atop the museum, but I very much doubt that is the case.  It’s 20 feet tall and weighs two tons.  It is set into a concrete base and I very much  doubt (in fact I have seen no evidence) that it is on top of the museum.  It is part of a collection of objects.  The fact that it was used for religious purposes is also irrelevant, unless you think it has physically retained some sort of spiritual-ness that will infect the rest of the museum, in which case you have some strange ideas about the physical properties of religious icons.  The cross no more suggests a religious affiliation than a Hermetic Priest’s staff in the London Museum suggests an affiliation with Hermeticism, or Egyptian religious artifacts suggests that the British Government is endorsing a belief in Ra or Horus or whomever.  

    So.  Its not on the museum where one would normally see a cross on a church.  Its in the museum.  Given these facts, do you still have a problem with it?  

  • Frank Yahweh

    When I placed that cross beam affair in the wreckage, I expected people to realise it was meant to be erected as a memorial. Sadly they put it the wrong way up.
    Thanks.
    God.

  • Frank Yahweh

    When I placed that cross beam affair in the wreckage, I expected people to realise it was meant to be erected as a memorial. Sadly they put it the wrong way up.
    Thanks.
    God.

  • DeepCough

    On some points, I may very well be mistaken, but that doesn’t change the fact that the coincidental crucifix is a useless artifact of the 9/11 attacks.

  • Anonymous

    Sadly, 90+% of Americans have used their eyelids as blinders to the rape and corruption before, during and after 9/11. Its actually time to safety pin the eyelids wide open and go after the Larry Silversteins, Murdochs, Bushes, Cantors and all the other ilk that are profiting from a wag the dog event like 9/11. 
    19 uneducated non-pilot terrorists took down 3 skyscrapers my ass! They (the 3 planes) were the first large scale drones used to start a war at the expense of all the world, Atheists, and all other religious affiliates as well.

  • BluesHunter60

    Offense is in the eye of the offended. It makes little sense to me to make this an issue. For those who believe, it’s a symbol of comfort. For those who don’t, it’s a museum piece (or a piece of ‘spin’ if you so choose). In the end, you control your level of being offended by symbols. 

  • BluesHunter60

    Offense is in the eye of the offended. It makes little sense to me to make this an issue. For those who believe, it’s a symbol of comfort. For those who don’t, it’s a museum piece (or a piece of ‘spin’ if you so choose). In the end, you control your level of being offended by symbols. 

  • Honu

    If Jesus even existed which the historical evidence doesn’t seem to indicate.  Uh oh…did I open that box?!

  • Tuna Ghost

    Ya gotta throw Socrates into that box too, which people seem reluctant to do…anyway, I’m not sure why people have such a hard time believing that a Jewish teacher and lived and taught in that area at that time, had a ministry for a bit, and was tried and executed for sedition against Rome, and then had his actions talked up a bit.  Seems pretty likely to me.   

  • Anubisdrake

    For one thing it being used in a religious ceremony does give it the property that people from that faith can now consider it a sacred and blessed object, at least in their minds giving it and by proxy them special status.
    For another as you said “It’s 20 feet tall and weighs two tons” and “It is set into a concrete base and I very much  doubt (in fact I have seen no evidence) that it is on top of the museum.” When as a matter of fact the article says this “the museum, which is mostly underground”and the image shown DOES NOT show that cross to be underground. That is a 2 Ton cross, with a who knows how heavy cement base, ON TOP of the museum.
    Given those facts I do have a problem with it.

  • Gregpettijohn

    The cross was used to torture and kill…It is chosen as a symbol to remember that Jesus Christ died under the burden of our sins, and that he did this so that our souls can live in eternity in heaven.  He died on this torturous cross…

  • Gregpettijohn

    The cross was used to torture and kill…It is chosen as a symbol to remember that Jesus Christ died under the burden of our sins, and that he did this so that our souls can live in eternity in heaven.  He died on this torturous cross…

  • BaphometRex666

    This is just a sleazy deceitful tactic by sleazy deceitful xtians to display their religious symbol.
    This is no different than the phoney abortion clinics they established in San Fransisco that don’t perform abortions but instead try to talk people out of abortions and get them to accept xtianity.
    If the xtians posting on this thread would not mind this “I” beam being set diagonally or even upside down I’d say
    they weren’t being sleazy underhanded bigots but that is not the case. If xtians are going to continue these actions I think it’s time we start deporting them or at the very least remove their tax exempt status until they can show they respect the rights on non xtians. Truthfully I’m all for a full blown eradication of their faith.

    • Jae

      Last time I checked, I was not except from paying taxes.  Interesting how everyone wants to be accepted, no judgment, tolerance – but listen to all of you.  Lumping Christians into one group as bigots, deceitful, etc.  All of your uncalled for comments against and entire group of people – most of which you do not know – seem to be very judgmental and not accepting.
      I am a Christian, but I do not walk around passing judgment on an entire group of people; That’s not my job.  I understand that everyone makes their own choices and has their own beliefs – as we are all entitled to. 
      Separation of church and state meaning that no law can be made based off of religion.  No one can be forced to worship a specific god.  Some people are taking this too far and taking God out of our lives – the people who want Him here.  I was not even allowed to pray in school – broke that rule.  Where is my freedom to practice what I believe?  I am not being a disturbance in any way by sitting quietly and praying – or even praying with a group of friends.  This metal cross is not jumping in anyone’s face, forcing you to read the Bible, bring deliverance, or worship it.  
      This has all gone too far. 
      Respect that some people choose to believe in something that you don’t.  It is not a big deal – just like your beliefs are not something I am going to try to change.  
      The metal stood when everything else fell.  I understand why it is to be used as a symbol.  More than anything, it is a piece of the building intact.  A sign for hope – that we can be torn down – and it may look bad, but there will always be a part in tact and we will rise again.
      Stop twisting everything and making it bad.  Instead of a cross for Christians, give it a meaning for yourself.  Is there nothing more positive and productive that you have to do but try to rip apart a group of people?
      I really hope that everyone in this forum will stop being so hypocritical and learn to be accepting and tolerant of others.

      • revmichaelsmargolin

        So you resort to more sleazy tactics? If you don’t want to be lumped in with the rest then take an active stand and voice against the Christians that blatantly attempt to violate non Christians rights! Until then you are just as guilty as they are. Ground Zero is a public park like that public school you willfully broke the rules of praying in when you could have went to a private school to indulge in your pathetic delusion.
        America was never a Christian country nor will it ever be. If you don’t like that there are plenty of countries that the only legal religion is Christianity, move to one of those. Until then I am your accuser and I will continue to expose you and your tactics.

        • Jennileam

          Ohhh, so THIS is the same level of tolerance you want me to exercise. Thanks for clearing it up! I really feel sorry for your ignorant prejudice.

          • revmichaelsmargolin

            More sleazy tactics, you just can’t stop can you? You feel sorry for me is a blatant lie and the world and even yourself knows this. I refuse to tolerate bigotry and you and yours are bigots. This is a public park if you don’t like that get your T.V. evangelists to buy the property. Till then stop trying to weasel your religious garbage on public property. And moron I’m not an Atheist.

  • BaphometRex666

    This is just a sleazy deceitful tactic by sleazy deceitful xtians to display their religious symbol.
    This is no different than the phoney abortion clinics they established in San Fransisco that don’t perform abortions but instead try to talk people out of abortions and get them to accept xtianity.
    If the xtians posting on this thread would not mind this “I” beam being set diagonally or even upside down I’d say
    they weren’t being sleazy underhanded bigots but that is not the case. If xtians are going to continue these actions I think it’s time we start deporting them or at the very least remove their tax exempt status until they can show they respect the rights on non xtians. Truthfully I’m all for a full blown eradication of their faith.

  • Jae

    Last time I checked, I was not except from paying taxes.  Interesting how everyone wants to be accepted, no judgment, tolerance – but listen to all of you.  Lumping Christians into one group as bigots, deceitful, etc.  All of your uncalled for comments against and entire group of people – most of which you do not know – seem to be very judgmental and not accepting.
    I am a Christian, but I do not walk around passing judgment on an entire group of people; That’s not my job.  I understand that everyone makes their own choices and has their own beliefs – as we are all entitled to. 
    Separation of church and state meaning that no law can be made based off of religion.  No one can be forced to worship a specific god.  Some people are taking this too far and taking God out of our lives – the people who want Him here.  I was not even allowed to pray in school – broke that rule.  Where is my freedom to practice what I believe?  I am not being a disturbance in any way by sitting quietly and praying – or even praying with a group of friends.  This metal cross is not jumping in anyone’s face, forcing you to read the Bible, bring deliverance, or worship it.  
    This has all gone too far. 
    Respect that some people choose to believe in something that you don’t.  It is not a big deal – just like your beliefs are not something I am going to try to change.  
    The metal stood when everything else fell.  I understand why it is to be used as a symbol.  More than anything, it is a piece of the building intact.  A sign for hope – that we can be torn down – and it may look bad, but there will always be a part in tact and we will rise again.
    Stop twisting everything and making it bad.  Instead of a cross for Christians, give it a meaning for yourself.  Is there nothing more positive and productive that you have to do but try to rip apart a group of people?
    I really hope that everyone in this forum will stop being so hypocritical and learn to be accepting and tolerant of others.

  • Jae

    Last time I checked, I was not except from paying taxes.  Interesting how everyone wants to be accepted, no judgment, tolerance – but listen to all of you.  Lumping Christians into one group as bigots, deceitful, etc.  All of your uncalled for comments against and entire group of people – most of which you do not know – seem to be very judgmental and not accepting.
    I am a Christian, but I do not walk around passing judgment on an entire group of people; That’s not my job.  I understand that everyone makes their own choices and has their own beliefs – as we are all entitled to. 
    Separation of church and state meaning that no law can be made based off of religion.  No one can be forced to worship a specific god.  Some people are taking this too far and taking God out of our lives – the people who want Him here.  I was not even allowed to pray in school – broke that rule.  Where is my freedom to practice what I believe?  I am not being a disturbance in any way by sitting quietly and praying – or even praying with a group of friends.  This metal cross is not jumping in anyone’s face, forcing you to read the Bible, bring deliverance, or worship it.  
    This has all gone too far. 
    Respect that some people choose to believe in something that you don’t.  It is not a big deal – just like your beliefs are not something I am going to try to change.  
    The metal stood when everything else fell.  I understand why it is to be used as a symbol.  More than anything, it is a piece of the building intact.  A sign for hope – that we can be torn down – and it may look bad, but there will always be a part in tact and we will rise again.
    Stop twisting everything and making it bad.  Instead of a cross for Christians, give it a meaning for yourself.  Is there nothing more positive and productive that you have to do but try to rip apart a group of people?
    I really hope that everyone in this forum will stop being so hypocritical and learn to be accepting and tolerant of others.

  • Anonymous

    So you resort to more sleazy tactics? If you don’t want to be lumped in with the rest then take an active stand and voice against the Christians that blatantly attempt to violate non Christians rights! Until then you are just as guilty as they are. Ground Zero is a public park like that public school you willfully broke the rules of praying in when you could have went to a private school to indulge in your pathetic delusion.
    America was never a Christian country nor will it ever be. If you don’t like that there are plenty of countries that the only legal religion is Christianity, move to one of those. Until then I am your accuser and I will continue to expose you and your tactics.

  • Anonymous

    So you resort to more sleazy tactics? If you don’t want to be lumped in with the rest then take an active stand and voice against the Christians that blatantly attempt to violate non Christians rights! Until then you are just as guilty as they are. Ground Zero is a public park like that public school you willfully broke the rules of praying in when you could have went to a private school to indulge in your pathetic delusion.
    America was never a Christian country nor will it ever be. If you don’t like that there are plenty of countries that the only legal religion is Christianity, move to one of those. Until then I am your accuser and I will continue to expose you and your tactics.

  • Jennileam

    Ohhh, so THIS is the same level of tolerance you want me to exercise. Thanks for clearing it up! I really feel sorry for your ignorant prejudice.

  • Anonymous

    More sleazy tactics, you just can’t stop can you? You feel sorry for me is a blatant lie and the world and even yourself knows this. I refuse to tolerate bigotry and you and yours are bigots. This is a public park if you don’t like that get your T.V. evangelists to buy the property. Till then stop trying to weasel your religious garbage on public property. And moron I’m not an Atheist.

  • Poohememe9

    God doesn’t let horrible things happen to people. It’s satan who is the ruler of this world, that takes controls of ones mind causing them to do the unthinkable to others.  Maybe if u would read your bible, u’ll see God is of love and satan is the one who comes to (kill,steal & destroy). U probablly don’t believe thier is a devil, think again.  I’m not here to judge anyone. but I sure would hate to die one day and wake up n the burning fires of hell.  Marion of MO.

  • Whatsthebigdeal?

    If you are an atheist, then it’s just two intersecting pieces of molten steel.  What’s the big deal?

  • Whatsthebigdeal?

    If you are an atheist, then it’s just two intersecting pieces of molten steel.  What’s the big deal?

    • revmichaelsmargolin

      I’m not an Atheist and your presumption exposes your bigotry.
      I’m just not a moron that bases his reality on your mythology.

  • Anonymous

    I’m not an Atheist and your presumption exposes your bigotry.
    I’m just not a moron that bases his reality on your mythology.

  • Viv

    We should sue the creeps at this crappy place Freedom From Religion Foundation for infringing the free speech right of those who don’t mind having a Christian symbol at the site of ground zero. Really does it really hurt the stupid little atheists if Christians express their beliefs? They go under their dank, dark, angry rock and stew if they want. These people are so annoying.

  • Viv

    We should sue the creeps at this crappy place Freedom From Religion Foundation for infringing the free speech right of those who don’t mind having a Christian symbol at the site of ground zero. Really does it really hurt the stupid little atheists if Christians express their beliefs? They go under their dank, dark, angry rock and stew if they want. These people are so annoying.

  • Viv

    We should sue the creeps at this crappy place Freedom From Religion Foundation for infringing the free speech right of those who don’t mind having a Christian symbol at the site of ground zero. Really does it really hurt the stupid little atheists if Christians express their beliefs? They go under their dank, dark, angry rock and stew if they want. These people are so annoying.

  • It’sTheAmericanWay

    You are correct on your points. However, I think if you read the story about how it was found and how it was used, you will notice that it and the services that ensued at the site, served as rallying point for people of all faiths and without. Just a way to share in daily fellowship in the face of the disaster for those who were doing the arduous and thankless task of cleaning up the site. It specifically mentions this in the article here  http://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/911-memorials-the-story-of-the-cross-at-ground-zero/2011/09/07/gIQA2mMXDK_story.html

  • It’sTheAmericanWay

    You are correct on your points. However, I think if you read the story about how it was found and how it was used, you will notice that it and the services that ensued at the site, served as rallying point for people of all faiths and without. Just a way to share in daily fellowship in the face of the disaster for those who were doing the arduous and thankless task of cleaning up the site. It specifically mentions this in the article here  http://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/911-memorials-the-story-of-the-cross-at-ground-zero/2011/09/07/gIQA2mMXDK_story.html

  • It’sTheAmericanWay

    You are correct on your points. However, I think if you read the story about how it was found and how it was used, you will notice that it and the services that ensued at the site, served as rallying point for people of all faiths and without. Just a way to share in daily fellowship in the face of the disaster for those who were doing the arduous and thankless task of cleaning up the site. It specifically mentions this in the article here  http://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/911-memorials-the-story-of-the-cross-at-ground-zero/2011/09/07/gIQA2mMXDK_story.html

  • OLDSKOOL

    maybe if u read your Bible, you would see the your God is the one that does the killing! Satan was only allowed to kill Job’s family with God’s permission. Global floods, mass killings of anyone who gets in Gods way or sows different seeds, mixes fabrics, works the sabbath etc. Is under your Gods law.

  • BaphometRex666

    Great Job OLDSKOOL!
    Keep pointing out the Emperor is naked!

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