• Mr Willow

    Revolution!!

  • Mr Willow

    Braveheart: “FREEEEEEDOM!!!!”

  • Simiantongue

    Inevitability.

    -unable to be avoided, evaded, or escaped; certain; necessary.

  • Simiantongue

    Inevitability.

    -unable to be avoided, evaded, or escaped; certain; necessary.

  • Simiantongue

    Inevitability.

    -unable to be avoided, evaded, or escaped; certain; necessary.

  • http://www.facebook.com/Vat13Tank4 Jeffery Dodds

    Um
    Sunday morning at 4 a.m. on September 24, 2001

  • http://www.facebook.com/Vat13Tank4 Jeffery Dodds

    Um
    Sunday morning at 4 a.m. on September 24, 2001

    • http://www.disinfo.com Disinformation

      Yes, no time travel was involved, would have been impossible to occupy Wall Street then!

  • http://disinfo.com Disinformation

    Yes, no time travel was involved, would have been impossible to occupy Wall Street then!

  • http://twitter.com/MiGaOh Michael G. O’Hair

    1.) Those kids have no idea what they’re doing…
    2.) and what they’re doing is having exactly zero effect…
    3.) because they don’t know what effect they’re trying to achieve.
    See “Reporting On Occupy Wall Street: Still Trying To Figure Out What They’re Doing” (http://bit.ly/qKpOnK)
    Suggestion: If you want to start a revolution, you don’t camp out on the king’s doorstep waiting for him to grant you permission.

  • http://twitter.com/MiGaOh Michael G. O’Hair

    1.) Those kids have no idea what they’re doing…
    2.) and what they’re doing is having exactly zero effect…
    3.) because they don’t know what effect they’re trying to achieve.
    See “Reporting On Occupy Wall Street: Still Trying To Figure Out What They’re Doing” (http://bit.ly/qKpOnK)
    Suggestion: If you want to start a revolution, you don’t camp out on the king’s doorstep waiting for him to grant you permission.

    • Anon

      “oh hey, look at those young people trying to get the rest of the country to get involved and stand up against the corporation that are bleeding this country dry.  Must be a bunch of nothing because I don’t care enough to find out.”

    • Mr Willow

      Sorry, but what would you prefer? What occurred in England? Yeah, because that went over so well. 

      This is what true spontaneous, grassroots protests look like. Did you expect them to all filter out of busses brandishing signs manufactured and pre-fabricated, as was the case at TParty events? 

      They have no leadership because they desire no leadership. From what may be gleaned from the various clips of people talking about what they want, or how they are deciding on what they want, it seems to me they are striving to find a workable system of social anarchism—as in no leaders, no administration to which the others are even loosely subject to; direct democracy; placing decisions to a vote and forming a group consensus before any actions are carried out collectively—or a loose participism, which I personally find fantastic. 

      I think it could benefit with some leadership, even vague leadership or loose leadership is better than disorganisation; a spokesman or spokesgroup even—someone with eloquence or the person or persons who best express the collective idea. 

      Which brings us to the idea itself. One very common theme that seems to be running through the minds and motivations of those protesting is the recognition, and condemnation, of the presence of corporate money pervading our politics, thus drowning out the ordinary citizens of this country who haven’t enough money to deal with credit card bills, student loans, and medical bills, let alone raising funds enough to challenge the corporate army of lobbyists. Others, as pointed out in the video above, include community and revolution, implying perhaps a greater wish to minimize capitalist influence on society, or a foregoing of consumerist idea(l)s, all things which I support. 

      I think the great impetus for the gathering was simply the feeling of injustice—again, corporate influence in government, an indifference or act of ignoring the well being of society, an established marginalisation or condemnation of those not of a centre-right disposition in politics and media, and an institutionalised obliviousness, if not overt hatred, toward those that embrace just the opposite disposition (socialism, anarchism, communism, etc.) and an obfuscation of the meanings of such ideas—and a feeling of being outright ignored in favour of the pro-corporate establishment and demonstrations. 

      But they are beginning to have an actual impact, as can be seen in Chicago, LA, and other cities which are organising their own Occupy events. I agree that they need to have a clear set of goals, and need to voice those things clearly, but a thing such as this does not spring wholesale out of the ground (which is the reason I hardly believe the TParty movement was at all genuine; it is a sham and manipulation of frustrated people’s emotions). Until the details are worked out and agreed upon, those participating, and those supporting them, can only make as much noise as possible.

      They wish to approach it maturely and with a respect for presently established law. If they start breaking windows and setting fires, then what little movement there is will be dashed in the public consciousness, it will be dismissed by the media in the same manner as were the riots in England, it will not be given a chance to garner the sort of public support necessary to have any of what the group hopes to accomplish to be achieved, and those involved will be demonised as domestic terrorists. 

      I agree that ultimately, given the police brutality already perpetrated, it may all be futile, and there is a possibility it will naturally devolve into a violent struggle, but do not dismiss potential revolution when it does not meet your expectations. If you underestimate it before anything happens and dismiss it out of hand, any effort is for naught anyway.

      • http://twitter.com/MiGaOh Michael G. O’Hair

        [Sorry, but what would you prefer? What occurred in England? Yeah, because that went over so well.]
        No. What they’re doing now isn’t working, but burning Manhattan down to the ground won’t achieve anything either. Somewhere in the middle is the right course of action. I don’t know what will work. Maybe the protesters can barrow paint from PETA to throw on investment bankers or something. Actively pursuing anyone in a suit and harassing them. Graffiti. Tomato throwing. Disobedience; anything short of doing physical harm.
        But as frustration mounts, people will resort to more drastic means. If those occupying Wall Street feel that their message isn’t being heard, they will either go home dejected or take up other methods which may include violence and property destruction.

        [This is what true spontaneous, grassroots protests look like.]
        It’s been said that the business classes and the rich are waging war against the middle class, bankrupting everyone poorer than they are.
        No battle was ever won through spontaneous action. There has to be a plan.
        If that’s what “true spontaneous, grassroots protests look like”, then it was a miracle that anything was accomplished in the past through those means.

        [Did you expect them to all filter out of busses brandishing signs
        manufactured and pre-fabricated, as was the case at TParty events?]
        I expected some shared objective once their arrived, rather than holding committees to determine their mission. Organization goes a long way toward accomplishing a goal. No organization, no goal, no effect. Tea Party events have very noticeable and tangible effects, even if misguided. It’s a bit like guerrilla warfare; they’re aren’t concerned if their methods are underhanded and dishonorable, they only care about the end result that is supposed to be achieved.

        [They wish to approach it maturely and with a respect for presently established law.]
        Those being protested manipulated the law, and therefore also acted within established law. And they were bailed out with free money from us, the taxpayers. Because they lobbied and helped write the laws. The corrupt elements being opposed wrote the laws. If the corrupt elements are held in contempt, the laws should be held in contempt as well. If you wish to change the world, you must not be afraid of breaking the law.
        Then again, that’s easy for me to say because I’m not out in front taking the risks.
        Hopefully these “occupy” actions don’t blow away like a stinky fart before they’re smelt.

        • Mr Willow

          My point was that this movement or protest is the result of a collection of people (generally left-leaning from what can be seen) that were tired of being ignored, and were equally angered and frustrated by the utter lack of attention being given to corporate money in politics and the banking sector’s unpunished role in causing the economy’s crash. 

          From what I can see, most of them do not know each other personally, and as such it is necessary to build some sort of consensus pertaining to each person’s reason for being there. With a couple thousand people, it takes some doing to make sure everyöne is on the same page as to each person’s reason for being there and what each person wishes the protest as a whole to achieve, establishing demands and/or grievances everyöne agrees upon and stands behind, which may be voiced to either the government or to Wall Street itself (as if telling WS why they’re angry will do any real good). As it stands now, however, they do not necessarily need a clear, defined set of demands. They only need to draw attention to the event itself, which is beginning to happen with the coverage it is starting to get in the news. And that coverage can only grow with the other protests in various other cities that are going to begin. If, however, we get to the second month or something—which has been espoused by those involved as being desirable—and they still have little or no organisation (again, even a general spokesman would be of some benefit) and no clear message and set of demands, then I will agree with you. 

          Again, they are somewhat placed at a disadvantage because they have no sense leadership, no one person or group of persons to articulate the wishes they will eventually have—and from what may be gathered from the videos of people within the protest, it seems to me they are beginning to work that out. Essentially, they have no Martin Luther King type figure. But as of yet, they don’t necessarily need that. 

          If there is violence, the protesters do not want to be the instigators of it. Judging by how the cops were treating people with tarps—which were only used to keep water off their belongings—I honestly do not think harassment of anyone would go over that well, though I do like the mental image of a bunch of execs covered in tomato sauce.

    • Monkey See Monkey Do

      what are YOU doing?

    • Simiantongue

      I thought about your post a while Michael G, O’Hair. It reminded me of something I had read some years ago.

      As to the history of the revolution, my ideas may be peculiar, perhaps singular. What do we mean by the Revolution? The war? That was no part of the revolution; it was only an effect and consequence of it, The revolution was in the minds of the people, and this was affected… before a drop of blood was shed – John Adams

  • Brother Ash

    Great video, having the Immortal Technique freestyle at the end was icing on the cake.

  • Brother Ash

    Great video, having the Immortal Technique freestyle at the end was icing on the cake.

  • rus_r_us

    i guess baseball teams have nothing to do with corporate power?

  • rus_r_us

    i guess baseball teams have nothing to do with corporate power?

  • Kev

    These people are revolutionary…what a joke, grab a rifle or weapon that will start a revolution, not standing on a street.

  • Kev

    These people are revolutionary…what a joke, grab a rifle or weapon that will start a revolution, not standing on a street.

    • http://twitter.com/MiGaOh Michael G. O’Hair

      They’re attempting peaceful protests; that is, without violence or weaponry. A noble gesture, if inefficient, but at the very least they could make more of an effort to inconvenience those they have grievances with…

      if they can ever decide what those grievances are and whom they are addressed to, and determine the best course of action to achieve their ends. Other than, say, taking up space and getting maced.

      • http://hormeticminds.blogspot.com/ Chaorder Gradient

        Like wind blowing over stone, nonviolent protests inevitably erode the established perspective. Calling for fire will only harden the stone in the long run.

    • MoralDrift

      most of the time, violent insurrection ends very poorly

    • http://hormeticminds.blogspot.com/ Chaorder Gradient

      See Simiantongue’s comment.

  • http://twitter.com/MiGaOh Michael G. O’Hair

    They’re attempting peaceful protests; that is, without violence or weaponry. A noble gesture, if inefficient, but at the very least they could make more of an effort to inconvenience those they have grievances with…

    if they can ever decide what those grievances are and whom they are addressed to, and determine the best course of action to achieve their ends. Other than, say, taking up space and getting maced.

  • Anon

    “oh hey, look at those young people trying to get the rest of the country to get involved and stand up against the corporation that are bleeding this country dry.  Must be a bunch of nothing because I don’t care enough to find out.”

  • Locke

    “Liberty” they all should have said.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2ZZg-wJtuAk

  • Locke

    “Liberty” they all should have said.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2ZZg-wJtuAk

  • Liars, all of you.

    Oh Look it is Luke “Disinformation Agent” RudkowSKI. Further dis-informing the people claiming it is the Anglo-American Empire that is a Germanic Death cult! Yeah right… Im pretty sure everybody knows who they are by now! A group of Degenerate “Basterds” That make their way into every country and gets kicked out over and over again throughout history! And you Know it! Going BOO HOO! Poor Oppressed me… Everyone always blames us. The Evil Whitey Gentiles are to blame. They are forever handing you nothing for something, Credit cards,Printing Money with nothing behind it etc… But you know Luke will never say that! And you can openly say that It is a Great Tragedy for those who have come into contact with these people. Nice try Luke! Chew on that Commies!

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Je67KlCpV84

  • Liars, all of you.

    Oh Look it is Luke “Disinformation Agent” RudkowSKI. Further dis-informing the people claiming it is the Anglo-American Empire that is a Germanic Death cult! Yeah right… Im pretty sure everybody knows who they are by now! A group of Degenerate “Basterds” That make their way into every country and gets kicked out over and over again throughout history! And you Know it! Going BOO HOO! Poor Oppressed me… Everyone always blames us. The Evil Whitey Gentiles are to blame. They are forever handing you nothing for something, Credit cards,Printing Money with nothing behind it etc… But you know Luke will never say that! And you can openly say that It is a Great Tragedy for those who have come into contact with these people. Nice try Luke! Chew on that Commies!

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Je67KlCpV84

  • Liars, all of you.

    Oh Look it is Luke “Disinformation Agent” RudkowSKI. Further dis-informing the people claiming it is the Anglo-American Empire that is a Germanic Death cult! Yeah right… Im pretty sure everybody knows who they are by now! A group of Degenerate “Basterds” That make their way into every country and gets kicked out over and over again throughout history! And you Know it! Going BOO HOO! Poor Oppressed me… Everyone always blames us. The Evil Whitey Gentiles are to blame. They are forever handing you nothing for something, Credit cards,Printing Money with nothing behind it etc… But you know Luke will never say that! And you can openly say that It is a Great Tragedy for those who have come into contact with these people. Nice try Luke! Chew on that Commies!

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Je67KlCpV84

  • Liars,all of you.

    I mean look at that Schnoz (As they affectionately refer to the nose themselves) Just because he has blond hair and blue eyes does not mean he is White. But quick to put up the Illusion of that when it suits them. Hey Im not White, Im Jewish!

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7iSrGQ1cwxM

  • Liars,all of you.

    14 comments then back to 12 right? Fuck you.

  • Mr Willow

    Sorry, but what would you prefer? What occurred in England? Yeah, because that went over so well. 

    This is what true spontaneous, grassroots protests look like. Did you expect them to all filter out of busses brandishing signs manufactured and pre-fabricated, as was the case at TParty events? They have no leadership because they desire no leadership. From what may be gleaned from the various clips of people talking about what they want, it seems to me they are striving to find a workable system of social anarchism—as in no leaders, no administration to which the others are even loosely subject to; direct democracy; placing decisions to a vote and forming a group consensus before any actions are carried out collectively—which I personally find fantastic. I think it could benefit with some leadership, even vague leadership or loose leadership is better than disorganisation; a spokesman or spokesgroup even—someone with eloquence or the person or persons who best expressed the collective idea. 

    Which brings us to the idea itself. One very common theme that seems to be running through the minds and motivations of those protesting is the recognition, and condemnation, of the presence of corporate money pervading our politics, thus drowning out the ordinary citizens of this country who haven’t enough money to deal with credit card bills, student loans, and medical bills, let alone raising funds enough to challenge the corporate army of lobbyists. Others, as pointed out in the video above, include community and revolution, implying perhaps a greater wish to minimize capitalist influence on society, or a foregoing of consumerist idea(l)s, all things which I support. 

    I think the great impetus for the gathering was simply the feeling of injustice—again, corporate influence in government, an indifference or act of ignoring the well being of society, an established marginalisation or condemnation of those not of a centre-right disposition in politics and media, and an institutionalised obliviousness, if not overt hatred, toward those that embrace just the opposite disposition (socialism, anarchism, communism, etc.) and an obfuscation of the meanings of such ideas—and a feeling of being outright ignored in favour of the pro-corporate establishment. 

    But they are beginning to have an actual impact, as can be seen in Chicago, LA, and other cities which are organising their own Occupy events. I agree that they need to have a clear set of goals, and need to voice those things clearly, but a thing such as this does not spring wholesale out of the ground (which is the reason I hardly believe the TParty movement is genuine; it is a sham and manipulation of frustrated people’s emotions). Until the details are worked out and agreed upon, those participating, and those supporting them, can only make enough noise as they can. 

    They wish to approach it maturely and with a respect for now established law. If they start breaking windows and setting fires, then what little movement there is will be dashed in the public consciousness, it will be dismissed by the media in the same manner as were the riots in England, it will not be given a chance to garner the sort of public support necessary to have any of what the group hopes to accomplish to be achieved, and those involved will be demonised as domestic terrorists. 

    I agree that ultimately, given the police brutality already perpetrated, it may all be futile, and it will naturally devolve into a violent struggle, but do not dismiss potential revolution when it does not meet your expectations. If you underestimate it before anything happens and dismiss it out of hand, any effort is for naught anyway.

  • Monkey See Monkey Do

    what are YOU doing?

  • Anonymous

    most of the time, violent insurrection ends very poorly

  • Simiantongue

    I thought about your post a while Michael G, O’Hair. It reminded me of something I had read some years ago.

    As to the history of the revolution, my ideas may be peculiar, perhaps singular. What do we mean by the Revolution? The war? That was no part of the revolution; it was only an effect and consequence of it, The revolution was in the minds of the people, and this was affected… before a drop of blood was shed – John Adams

  • http://twitter.com/MiGaOh Michael G. O’Hair

    [Sorry, but what would you prefer? What occurred in England? Yeah, because that went over so well.]
    No. What they’re doing now isn’t working, but burning Manhattan down to the ground won’t achieve anything either. Somewhere in the middle is the right course of action. I don’t know what will work. Maybe the protesters can barrow paint from PETA to throw on investment bankers or something. Actively pursuing anyone in a suit and harassing them. Graffiti. Tomato throwing. Disobedience; anything short of doing physical harm.
    But as frustration mounts, people will resort to more drastic means. If those occupying Wall Street feel that their message isn’t being heard, they will either go home dejected or take up other methods which may include violence and property destruction.

    [This is what true spontaneous, grassroots protests look like.]
    It’s been said that the business classes and the rich are waging war against the middle class, bankrupting everyone poorer than they are.
    No battle was ever won through spontaneous action. There has to be a plan.
    If that’s what “true spontaneous, grassroots protests look like”, then it was a miracle that anything was accomplished in the past through those means.

    [Did you expect them to all filter out of busses brandishing signs
    manufactured and pre-fabricated, as was the case at TParty events?]
    I expected some shared objective once their arrived, rather than holding committees to determine their mission. Organization goes a long way toward accomplishing a goal. No organization, no goal, no effect. Tea Party events have very noticeable and tangible effects, even if misguided. It’s a bit like guerrilla warfare; they’re aren’t concerned if their methods are underhanded and dishonorable, they only care about the end result that is supposed to be achieved.

    [They wish to approach it maturely and with a respect for presently established law.]
    Those being protested manipulated the law, and therefore also acted within established law. And they were bailed out with free money from us, the taxpayers. Because they lobbied and helped write the laws. The corrupt elements being opposed wrote the laws. If the corrupt elements are held in contempt, the laws should be held in contempt as well. If you wish to change the world, you must not be afraid of breaking the law.
    Then again, that’s easy for me to say because I’m not out in front taking the risks.
    Hopefully these “occupy” actions don’t blow away like a stinky fart before they’re smelt.

  • Mr Willow

    My point was that this movement or protest is the result of a collection of people (generally left-leaning from what can be seen) that were tired of being ignored, and were equally angered and frustrated by the utter lack of attention being given to corporate money in politics and the banking sector’s unpunished role in causing the economy’s crash. 

    From what I can see, most of them do not know each other personally, and as such it is necessary to build some sort of consensus pertaining to each person’s reason for being there. With a couple thousand people, it takes some doing to make sure everyöne is on the same page as to each person’s reason for being there and what each person wishes the protest as a whole to achieve, establishing demands and/or grievances everyöne agrees upon and stands behind, which may be voiced to either the government or to Wall Street itself (as if tell WS why they’re angry will do any real good). As it stands now, however, they do not necessarily need a clear, defined set of demands. They only need to draw attention to the event itself, which is beginning to happen with the coverage it is starting to get in the news. And that coverage can only grow with the other protests in various other cities that are going to begin. If, however, we get to the second month or something—which has been espoused by those involved as being desirable—and they still have little or no organisation (again, even a general spokesman would be of some benefit) and no clear message and set of demands, then I will agree with you. 

    Again, they are somewhat placed at a disadvantage because they have no sense leadership, no one person or group of persons to articulate the wishes they will eventually have—and from what may be gathered from the videos of people within the protest, it seems to me they are beginning to work out. Essentially, they have no Martin Luther King type figure. But as of yet, they don’t necessarily need that. 

    If there is violence, the protesters do not want to be the instigators of it. Judging by how the cops were treating people with tarps—which were only used to keep water off their belongings—I honestly do not this harassment of anyone would go over that well, though I do like the mental image of a bunch of execs covered in tomato sauce.

  • http://hormeticminds.blogspot.com/ Chaorder Gradient

    Don’t you get it? They are the hive mind, It is leaderless because they are all the leaders and the followers.

  • http://hormeticminds.blogspot.com/ Chaorder Gradient

    Don’t you get it? They are the hive mind, It is leaderless because they are all the leaders and the followers.

  • http://hormeticminds.blogspot.com/ Chaorder Gradient

    See Simiantongue’s comment.

  • http://hormeticminds.blogspot.com/ Chaorder Gradient

    Like wind blowing over stone, nonviolent protests inevitably erode the established perspective. Calling for fire will only harden the stone in the long run.

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