British Lawyers Claim US Declaration Of Independence Is Illegal

trumbull-large1

John Trumbull's "Declaration of Independence, July 4, 1776"

BBC News reports on some British lawyers who have dared to show up in Philadelphia and claim that US Independence is illegal:

Was the Declaration of Independence legal?

In Philadelphia, American and British lawyers have debated the legality of America’s founding documents.

On Tuesday night, while Republican candidates in Nevada were debating such American issues as nuclear waste disposal and the immigration status of Mitt Romney’s gardener, American and British lawyers in Philadelphia were taking on a far more fundamental topic.

Namely, just what did Thomas Jefferson think he was doing?

Some background: during the hot and sweltering summer of 1776, members of the second Continental Congress travelled to Philadelphia to discuss their frustration with royal rule.

By 4 July, America’s founding fathers approved a simple document penned by Jefferson that enumerated their grievances and announced themselves a sovereign nation.

Called the Declaration of Independence, it was a blow for freedom, a call to war, and the founding of a new empire.

It was also totally illegitimate and illegal.

At least, that was what lawyers from the UK argued during a debate at Philadelphia’s Ben Franklin Hall.

The event, presented by the Temple American Inn of Court in conjunction with Gray’s Inn, London, pitted British barristers against American lawyers to determine whether or not the American colonists had legal grounds to declare secession.

For American lawyers, the answer is simple: “The English had used their own Declaration of Rights to depose James II and these acts were deemed completely lawful and justified,” they say in their summary.

To the British, however, secession isn’t the legal or proper tool by which to settle internal disputes. “What if Texas decided today it wanted to secede from the Union? Lincoln made the case against secession and he was right,” they argue in their brief…

[continues at BBC News]

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  • Twigged3

    dumb

  • Twigged3

    dumb

  • DeepCough

    Yeah, the Founding Fathers in 1776 were kinda/sorta already aware of the simple fact that they were committing high treason punishable by death, but even then, they didn’t give a shit.

  • DeepCough

    Yeah, the Founding Fathers in 1776 were kinda/sorta already aware of the simple fact that they were committing high treason punishable by death, but even then, they didn’t give a shit.

  • BrianApocalypse

    Heh, somehow I don’t think they cared whether it was “legal” or “treasonous”.

  • Anonymous

    Heh, somehow I don’t think they cared whether it was “legal” or “treasonous”.

  • Jin The Ninja

    Not surprised lawyers from one of the world’s largest empire’s declared an act of anti-imperialism illegal.

    revolutions, as a principle, are opposed by the state. lol.

    But what i think is MORE interesting is the discussion of ‘natural law’ and anti imperialist struggle in the occupied world this mock trial elicits.

    Not to mention, the original colonists came to turtle island without the consent of the original inhabitants (perhaps consenting them to stay and co-exist, but surely not to stay, rape and pillage the land and it’s original peoples).

    It’s not as if there is a particularly righteous arguement either way.

    • Anarchy Pony

      Well, it was really more of an act of independant imperialism than anti-imperialism. One of the main reasons that the US was founded was so they could raise a military in order to conquer lands further west and reap the rewards as opposed to letting the crown do so.

      • Jin The Ninja

        you are right of course, i never thought about it that way, i guess i am too acustomed to  the dysfunctional anglo-canadian historical context that allowed the crown to conquer all the lands west of lower canada (ontario).

      • Rus Archer

        yup, free themselves up to wage war on the brit-protected natives and their lands

  • Anonymous

    Not surprised lawyers from one of the world’s largest empire’s declared an act of anti-imperialism illegal.

    But what i think is MORE interesting is the discussion of ‘natural law’ and anti imperialist struggle in the occupied world this mock trial invokes.

  • Anonymous

    Not surprised lawyers from one of the world’s largest empire’s declared an act of anti-imperialism illegal.

    But what i think is MORE interesting is the discussion of ‘natural law’ and anti imperialist struggle in the occupied world this mock trial invokes.

  • Mr Willow

    Wait. They’ve had 235 years and they’re just now coming to that conclusion?

    Of course it was illegal, they were committing treason! That’s why we had the War.

    Of course, as pointed out in the comment section of the article, the colonisation of the entire eastern seaboard of North America constitutes invasion on a foreign nation that was already established, and is therefore illegal as well, as was all of the barbarism that is associated with the initial settlement and all the genocide and forced migration committed by our founders. 

    On the other hand, if we could all enroll on the NHS, I might consider their position.

    • Jin The Ninja

      for the NHS, i could even be enticed to vote Labour:P

  • Anti-Citizen1

    Well, it was really more of an act of independant imperialism than anti-imperialism. One of the main reasons that the US was founded was so they could raise a military in order to conquer lands further west and reap the rewards as opposed to letting the crown do so.

  • Mr Willow

    Wait. They’ve had 235 years and they’re just now coming to that conclusion?

    Of course it was illegal, they were committing treason! That’s why we had the War.

    Of course, as pointed out in the comment section of the article, the settlement of the entire eastern seaboard of North America constitutes invasion on a foreign nation that was already established, and is therefore illegal as well, as was all of the barbarism that is associated with the initial settlement and all the genocide and forced migration committed by our founders. 

    On the other hand, if we could all enroll on the NHS, I might consider their position.

  • Anonymous

    you are right of course, i never thought about it that way, i guess i am too acustomed to  the dysfunctional anglo-canadian historical context that allowed the crown to conquer all the lands west of lower canada (ontario).

  • Anonymous

    for the NHS, i could even be enticed to vote Labour:P

  • Irishpotatogun

    Can they please explain how rule by divine Divine Right has any legality to it.  Psychotics should not rule anything larger than a padded room.

  • Irishpotatogun

    Can they please explain how rule by divine Divine Right has any legality to it.  Psychotics should not rule anything larger than a padded room.

  • E.B. Wolf

    If only there had been a Tea Party rally nearby. Someone could have netted a few, given them muskets and sabers, turned them loose inside, and neglected to mention that it was just a naval-gazing exercise for lawyers.

    I for one would pay money to see the results.

  • E.B. Wolf

    If only there had been a Tea Party rally nearby. Someone could have netted a few, given them muskets and sabers, turned them loose inside, and neglected to mention that it was just a naval-gazing exercise for lawyers.

    I for one would pay money to see the results.

  • E.B. Wolf

    If only there had been a Tea Party rally nearby. Someone could have netted a few, given them muskets and sabers, turned them loose inside, and neglected to mention that it was just a naval-gazing exercise for lawyers.

    I for one would pay money to see the results.

  • http://twitter.com/stanchaz stan chaz

    What’s up Disinformation? Why no Occupy Wall Street news and views???????????????????????????????

    • Jin The Ninja

      people have been posting stories all week?

  • http://twitter.com/stanchaz stan chaz

    What’s up Disinformation? Why no Occupy Wall Street news and views???????????????????????????????

  • Anonymous

    people have been posting stories all week?

  • V.

    people find some interesting ways to entertain themselves 

  • V.

    people find some interesting ways to entertain themselves 

  • NarwhalNecropsy

    Is it just me, or is this fucking stupid?

    • bobbiethejean

      It’s not just you, trust me. This is indeed pretty fuckin dumb.

  • NarwhalNecropsy

    Is it just me, or is this fucking stupid?

  • BuzzCoastin

    Except for the “Revolutionary War” and the War of 1812,
    when hasn’t the US behaved as if part of Britain?
    Except for the British Colonial Wars,
    when the US was busy with its own colonization wars,
    it has fought Britain’s major wars for her.
    Buys lots of weapons from British defense contractors
    thereby paying tribute to the Queen.

    Since the Bill of Rights was replaced by the Patriot Act
    it’s really hard to tell that the US isn’t British or Britain isn’t the US.
    Only the fake money and the languages are different.

  • http://buzzcoastin.posterous.com BuzzCoastin

    Except for the “Revolutionary War” and the War of 1812,
    when hasn’t the US behaved as if part of Britain?
    Except for the British Colonial Wars,
    when the US was busy with its own colonization wars,
    it has fought Britain’s major wars for her.
    Buys lots of weapons from British defense contractors
    thereby paying tribute to the Queen.

    Since the Bill of Rights was replaced by the Patriot Act
    it’s really hard to tell that the US isn’t British or Britain isn’t the US.
    Only the fake money and the languages are different.

  • Mark Barnes

    Welp – Tell the Queen I’ve got a bucket or so of lead and a copy of the Declaration of Independence and our other founding docs so – BRING IT, if they still believe after 250 years and a couple of azzwhoopin’s it is still so illegal… We’ve saved England now so many times, it’s ridiculous. Just like the French, what a bunch of damned ingrates! Always wanting to take what we have… I can’t  believe that in this day and age they’ve even got the ball-balls to bring this up! Shut up and go home you buncha panty waist English lawyers before you get run out on a rail…

    There is NO reason to drudge this up other than for one reason and one reason only… Watch the wording closely and note that even the UN is brought into the conversation… This is BULL and I suggest that their intent is NOT a hypothetical nor innocent!!!
    SO – I reiterate my original comment to the Queen… Have lead, will fight for MY COUNTRY….. This kinda crap really pisses me off… Who’s next in line? The French and Rothchilds? Oh, then the Spaniards…

    Take a number…

    • Sven Schmidt

      jesus dude! we come over here and steal land from the indians, murder, pillage ansd desecrate their culture and infest them with the christian disease… who gives a fuck what happened 250 years ago, the states are made up of immigrants, english, french, italian spanish, and many other cultures from around the world.. but it aint so hot a country.. nothing to be too proud of

  • Mark Barnes

    Welp – Tell the Queen I’ve got a bucket or so of lead and a copy of the Declaration of Independence and our other founding docs so – BRING IT, if they still believe after 250 years and a couple of azzwhoopin’s it is still so illegal… We’ve saved England now so many times, it’s ridiculous. Just like the French, what a bunch of damned ingrates! Always wanting to take what we have… I can’t  believe that in this day and age they’ve even got the ball-balls to bring this up! Shut up and go home you buncha panty waist English lawyers before you get run out on a rail…

    There is NO reason to drudge this up other than for one reason and one reason only… Watch the wording closely and note that even the UN is brought into the conversation… This is BULL and I suggest that their intent is NOT a hypothetical nor innocent!!!
    SO – I reiterate my original comment to the Queen… Have lead, will fight for MY COUNTRY….. This kinda crap really pisses me off… Who’s next in line? The French and Rothchilds? Oh, then the Spaniards…

    Take a number…

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/Bobbie-Jean-Pentecost/100000391760333 Bobbie Jean Pentecost

    It’s not just you, trust me. This is indeed pretty fuckin dumb.

  • 5by5

    LOL! Of course its illegal! It’s a fracking R-E-V-O-L-U-T-I-O-N!

    What was the Ben Franklin joke in the movie “1776″?

    Franklin: “The charge of treason is used by winners as an excuse for hanging the losers.”

  • 5by5

    LOL! Of course its illegal! It’s a fracking R-E-V-O-L-U-T-I-O-N!

    What was the Ben Franklin joke in the movie “1776″?

    Franklin: “The charge of treason is used by winners as an excuse for hanging the losers.”

  • http://www.facebook.com/tgorethurst Sven Schmidt

    jesus dude! we come over here and steal land from the indians, murder, pillage ansd desecrate their culture and infest them with the christian disease… who gives a fuck what happened 250 years ago, the states are made up of immigrants, english, french, italian spanish, and many other cultures from around the world.. but it aint so hot a country.. nothing to be too proud of

  • http://twitter.com/jasonpaulhayes jasonpaulhayes

    If Britain didn’t have a shameful history of pandering to religion and oppressing its people, America wouldn’t have the inspiration to speak to power in the streets today. Thanks for showing us how not to behave as a people, what we have to fight for as a country and why religion and politics must remain separate the world over.

    We don’t care about your bloodlines or your fears of multiculturalism. Britain is a shit stain on the pages of history, so shut the fuck up and eat your beans and bread.

  • http://twitter.com/jasonpaulhayes jasonpaulhayes

    If Britain didn’t have a shameful history of pandering to religion and oppressing its people, America wouldn’t have the inspiration to speak to power in the streets today. Thanks for showing us how not to behave as a people, what we have to fight for as a country and why religion and politics must remain separate the world over.

    We don’t care about your bloodlines or your fears of multiculturalism. Britain is a shit stain on the pages of history, so shut the fuck up and eat your beans and bread.

  • http://twitter.com/jasonpaulhayes jasonpaulhayes

    If Britain didn’t have a shameful history of pandering to religion and oppressing its people, America wouldn’t have the inspiration to speak to power in the streets today. Thanks for showing us how not to behave as a people, what we have to fight for as a country and why religion and politics must remain separate the world over.

    We don’t care about your bloodlines or your fears of multiculturalism. Britain is a shit stain on the pages of history, so shut the fuck up and eat your beans and bread.

  • http://twitter.com/jasonpaulhayes jasonpaulhayes

    If Britain didn’t have a shameful history of pandering to religion and oppressing its people, America wouldn’t have the inspiration to speak to power in the streets today. Thanks for showing us how not to behave as a people, what we have to fight for as a country and why religion and politics must remain separate the world over.

    We don’t care about your bloodlines or your fears of multiculturalism. Britain is a shit stain on the pages of history, so shut the fuck up and eat your beans and bread.

  • jasonpaulhayes

    If Britain didn’t have a shameful history of pandering to religion and oppressing its people, America wouldn’t have the inspiration to speak to power in the streets today. Thanks for showing us how not to behave as a people, what we have to fight for as a country and why religion and politics must remain separate the world over.

    We don’t care about your bloodlines or your fears of multiculturalism. Britain is a shit stain on the pages of history, so shut the fuck up and eat your beans and bread.

    • Yourafundygaytheist

      Shut the fuck up you whiny douche. You make everything about religion you extremist liberal Fundy turd psycho. 

      • Jin The Ninja

        better than a raving extremist rightie with a grammar problem:- D

  • Jon Ward

    England, if you wanna go again, we’ll fucking go.  We kicked that ass once and we’ll fucking do it again! LET’S DANCE, MOTHER FUCKER!

  • Jon Ward

    England, if you wanna go again, we’ll fucking go.  We kicked that ass once and we’ll fucking do it again! LET’S DANCE, MOTHER FUCKER!

  • CaseyLee

    And us Americans are idiots? What is the purpose of this?

  • CaseyLee

    And us Americans are idiots? What is the purpose of this?

  • Rus Archer

    does it really matter who assrapes you? preferably the person with the least penetrating power and get it over quickmascarading as mommy and/or daddy doesn’t make them any less our oppressors
    let’s stop identifying ourselves with them

  • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=773433966 Rus Archer

    does it really matter who assrapes you? preferably the person with the least penetrating power and get it over quickmascarading as mommy and/or daddy doesn’t make them any less our oppressors
    let’s stop identifying ourselves with them

  • Yourafundygaytheist

    Shut the fuck up you whiny douche. You make everything about religion you extremist liberal Fundy turd psycho. 

  • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=773433966 Rus Archer

    yup, free themselves up to wage war on the brit-protected natives and their lands

  • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=773433966 Rus Archer

    yup, free themselves up to wage war on the brit-protected natives and their lands

  • http://twitter.com/Koen027 Koen De Groote

    Of course it’s illegal by their system. And of course the rulers of that time would have been correct making a case against is.

    The simple fact is that this does not matter in the least. If these people want out, they’ll get out. Either you let them, or they’ll fight their way out.

    And they fought their way out. Because they wouldn’t be let out.

    And if Texas today decides to secede from the Union, the rest of the Union would object, but do you honestly expect Texas’s response to be obedience? No, they’ll fight their way out, because they know that they won’t be allowed to walk free.

    Unless of course, the real point of this argument is to make the case that you shouldn’t fight the established powers and gain independence through conquest. You should *ask* them for it and hope they give it. That’s what I think they’re trying to push here. The concept that you shouldn’t resist the governing bodies of your country by force. Only peaceful protests and request may be made. Which will never be granted. And you have to accept those outcomes too.

    Sad really…

  • http://twitter.com/Koen027 Koen De Groote

    Of course it’s illegal by their system. And of course the rulers of that time would have been correct making a case against is.

    The simple fact is that this does not matter in the least. If these people want out, they’ll get out. Either you let them, or they’ll fight their way out.

    And they fought their way out. Because they wouldn’t be let out.

    And if Texas today decides to secede from the Union, the rest of the Union would object, but do you honestly expect Texas’s response to be obedience? No, they’ll fight their way out, because they know that they won’t be allowed to walk free.

    Unless of course, the real point of this argument is to make the case that you shouldn’t fight the established powers and gain independence through conquest. You should *ask* them for it and hope they give it. That’s what I think they’re trying to push here. The concept that you shouldn’t resist the governing bodies of your country by force. Only peaceful protests and request may be made. Which will never be granted. And you have to accept those outcomes too.

    Peaceful protest won’t get you anywhere of importance. The ancestors of the Americans understood this, why can’t the current generation understand it?

    Probably because of that totalitarian indoctrination that “violence is never the answer”. It’s not always the answer, but you must recognize when it is the only option left.

    Whether it be revolution, or the occupation of wallstreet: peaceful protest gets you nowhere. Nothing of importance will change by sitting on your ass, marching about a bit and singing some songs. They’ll let you sit there for a while, they’ll pretend to give you something important with a million loopholes in it you can’t ever all find, and they you go home, thinking you actually accomplished something.

    Have any of the protestors wondered why there’s still a need to protest? There’s been tons of protests since the beginning of America itself. Why is this still necessary? Why isn’t there a system in place yet, to regulate politicians and companies of all sizes? After all these decades?

    It’s because all those old protests, which you’d have to look up because they’re not public knowledge, amounted to nothing. At the time, you got “big changes”. But were they really big? Look at the current situation: did the changes of the past, all those victories from all those protests, really change anything?

    They didn’t. If they had, there would have been no crash and there would be no Occupy WallStreet.

    And I predict that once again, once these protests are over and there’s been some  “promise of change”, it’ll be worthless.

    Same play, different actors. And you protestors think you’re actually being revolutionary.

    Sad really…

  • Redacted

    To keep it authentic, did they sail here on the HMS Victory?

  • Anonymous

    To keep it authentic, did they sail here on the HMS Victory?

  • Liam_McGonagle

    I thought that was the whole point behind the guns and sh*t.  What was that now?  There was like a name for it, or something.  The American Revelation or some such?

    Fc*k, I don’t know.  Let’s go ask the Indians what they think.

  • Anonymous

    I thought that was the whole point behind the guns and sh*t.  What was that now?  There was like a name for it, or something.  The American Revelation or some such?

    Fc*k, I don’t know.  Let’s go ask the Indians what they think.

  • Anonymous

    better than a raving extremist rightie with a grammar problem:- D

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