• Hazy Daisy

    Not a word about its Masonic origins. Strange, given that it occupies such a central place in the American mythos. My own take on it it that it is indeed Masonic: it is as monumental and commanding as it is hollow and kitsch, breathtakingly insincere and more than a little sycophantic, and now as hauntingly a relic of the past as Masonry itself is.

    • Lifobryan

      Hey there Hazy! (My new fave Disinfo poster!)
      Do you have any personal connections or experience with Freemasonry?
      Not disputing your post at all … because I kinda agree. (At least with where American Freemasonry has gone by & large. It’s a different animal elsewhere – more occulty, less nationalist). 

      Anyway … just curious ….

      • Hazy Daisy

        Why? I haven’t exactly covered myself with glory. And once again I find myself caught short. Because, far from being something enticing, like a disaffected Freemason, I’m just another slob howling into the breeze.

        But, I’m taking a stand against that persistent strain of conspiracism that attributes immense power to Freemasonry, even now in these twilight years of industrial civilization. I say Freemasonry today is a shadow of its former self. I can’t prove it. I just can’t credit that this organization is exempt from the laws that govern human relations. Like any other outfit its most immediate threat is simple evaporation; to leave the fraternity, all you have to do is to stop paying your dues. But it also suffers because it can no longer attract the best. Only the most unimaginative strivers, who think joining confers a material advantage, bother these days.

        And that’s me: bold assertions based on nothing.

        • Monkey See Monkey Do

          I’d say there must be other secret clubs the elites are joining with delusions of granduer.

        • Lifobryan

          “Glory” has nothing to do with it …  However, “a tendency to daydream and an aversion to sport ….” is a beautiful description and makes me like you whether or not I agree with you. As does “I’m just another slob howling into the breeze.” That’s so refreshing. If only more of us on this board could toggle so readily between saying what we honestly feel, but then acknowledging our opinions are just opinions. I think you walk a nice & careful line between getting a discussion going & being open to other points of view. If more people had your ‘hazy’ approach, I think discussion on the board would be enriched. Your approach is challenging, yet humble. That’s tough to pull off. 

          As to Freemasonry, I mostly agree. American Freemasonry is not the institution of enlightenment that it had been in previous centuries. European Masonic lodges in the 18th century were curious hotbeds of occult philosophy & anti-autocratic ideals. Those ideas certainly worked their way into the fabric of western democracy through all sorts of means, “conspiratorial” & otherwise.

          American Freemasonry lost its teeth as well as its passion for social enlightenment – and became instead a club for wanna-be players and old man pancake breakfasts. 

          That said … I do think that a younger generation is discovering Freemasonry, and might …. just might …. begin move the fraternity back in the direction of its classical values. 

          We’ll see …

          • Hazy Daisy

            If a younger generation is discovering Freemasonry, that’s all to the good. I don’t know if you are familiar with John Michael Greer’s Archdruid Report. He has posted both on the vital role that Freemasonry played in the past as a support for vulnerable women and children — providing, mind, that the (deceased) husband was a fully paid-up member of the fraternity, and on the likely role that Freemasonry might play as industrial civilization winds down. In both cases, past and future, lodges are a welcome component of a more tightly knit, fine-grained community, certainly better than what we have now: a massified grid of production and estrangement, as described by John Zerzan.

          • Lifobryan

            Thanks for that – I wasn’t familiar with the Archdruid Report, but just checked it out. It looks fascinating & I will peruse thoroughly! I’m actually really intrigued by the ‘old’ religions & hermeticism. Thanks! If you are interested in reading about classic Freemasonry (pre-USA), check out “Born in Blood” by John Robinson. Also, “The Earth Will Shake” & “The Widow’s Son,” both by RAW, are insanely well researched & entertainingly insane.

            This is why I love the disinfo site – discussions on one topic often take a quantum jump into another topic. Who’da thunk we’d travel from the delivery of the Statue of Liberty, forward to the end of industrial-ocracy, and wind up way back pre-industri-conomy, in the company of Druids. Love it!

  • http://www.facebook.com/bill.shepherd.7771 Bill Shepherd

    It’s funny how the Statue of Liberty has a face of a man (Apollo).

    • Anomaly_of_Anomie

      That’s funny, in the picture she looks a bit like Elvis. 

      • Lifobryan

        And sorta like Caligula. 

    • Monkey See Monkey Do

      Not the most welcoming eyes

  • http://jerrykimbro.daportfolio.com/ Jerry Alan Kimbro

    How are these pictures ominous? If anything I think they are marvelous considering the history of the Statue of Liberty and spirit of friendship with which she arrived on our shores. That kind of camaraderie does not exist today. France would be more likely to send an Atom Bomb.

    • Jin The Ninja

      nah, they’re way too busy with their own internal and external problems. ever heard of something called the ‘european union’ ? only amerikkka plays world police with atom bombs.

      • http://jerrykimbro.daportfolio.com/ Jerry Alan Kimbro

        Why are you trying to goad me? why do you hate America so much? why are you so angry? You must be in your twenties.

        • Jin The Ninja

          1-your comments seek reply. 2-no nation is worthy of veneration. 3- angry? what i said was simply HISTORICAL. 4- yes, and i’ll take that over a cantankerous ol elephant any day.

          • http://jerrykimbro.daportfolio.com/ Jerry Alan Kimbro

            1) Sorry if I seem like I wanted YOU to reply. i really didn’t. 2) IMHO: America – for all its faults is still the best country in the world. 3) And yes, you are angry, Mr. ninja.
            4) Elephants are noble animals.

          • Jin The Ninja

            1) any comment that spreads disinfo, BEGS reply. 2) america is a very flawed nation built on blood and white supremacy. no nation is the ‘best nation.’ anyone who believes so is deeply delusional, filled with the pseudo-mystical psyops that is nationalism. 3) I already said that. 4) i was referring to elephants of the republican variety, known for their instinctual stupidity. noble is not a word they know.

          • http://jerrykimbro.daportfolio.com/ Jerry Alan Kimbro

            1) Any comment you don’t agree with is disinfo. 2) If you don’t like America- why don’t you leave? 3) At least you know you have anger issues 4) Be careful of the things you despise- eventually you become them.

          • Jin The Ninja

            1) comments that are anti-intellectual, misinformed and ahistorial, and are spread as gospel ARE in fact disinfo. 3) you really don’t get it. Nationlism is a disease of the mind. it’s not healthy. 4) anger at injustice is different that punching someone in a barfight. one is moral one is not. 4) become a neo-con like you? nah, i’d rather stick nicely with my radical politics- so much more human than nazi.

          • http://jerrykimbro.daportfolio.com/ Jerry Alan Kimbro

            1) Well I’m on the right website then. 2) What happened to 2? 3) Being proud of my country is a disease? and hating it with every fiber of your being is healthy? RIIIIIGGGHHHT. 4) I’m hardly a neo-con. Just throwing out buzzwords now aren’t you? And just for your info- when you call people nazis- well you lose all arguments. unless of course – they are nazis. which i’m not. BTW- in Germany I could now have you arrested for spouting hate speech. You know hatred well- since you despise America so much. I’m sure it comes naturally to you.

          • Jin The Ninja

            1) no, you’re a troll that adds nothing, says nothing of import. we have plenty enough of those sort. 2.3) yes. nationalism is a mental disease. and it functions much like hysterical evangelical religion. 3) hardly a neo-con? i beg to differ, you sound like every other two bit limbaugh troll. 4) lol. when has america ever respected int’l law? never.
            5) again, i am not anti-america, i am anti war, anti imperialism, anti racism, anti sexism, anti oppression, anti bullshit. so are you asserting america is pro oppression pro bullshit?

          • Calypso_1

            I believe you may be arguing with an individual with clinical cognitive deficits….if you haven’t yet checked out his ‘comix’, I’d suggest doing so before before casting any more pearls.

          • Jin The Ninja

             point taken. there are few/no words.

          • http://www.ContraControl.com/ Zenc

            Brilliant wording on your part, btw.

          • http://jerrykimbro.daportfolio.com/ Jerry Alan Kimbro

            1) Well i think you have touched all the bases here- i’m a troll- nazi -neo con with no compassion, no empathy, a warmongering, hysterical evangelical… Nothing else to add i suppose. You’re running out of buzzwords..2) there’s nothing wrong with being proud of where you’re from. 3) International law? what country has ever respescted it? China certainly doesn’t. 4)I’m not asserting anything about America. You are.

          • Jin The Ninja

            lol. you have simply run out of shrill defense.

          • http://jerrykimbro.daportfolio.com/ Jerry Alan Kimbro

            No, i’m just waiting for you to run out of insults. Guess, i won’t hold my breath waiting.

          • Jin The Ninja

            blue yet?

          • http://jerrykimbro.daportfolio.com/ Jerry Alan Kimbro

            Winning an idealogical argument with someone on the internet, who lives halfway across the planet from you with opposing views from your own, is rather sad. You could have simply tried to be my friend- but you’d rather win an argument- so i give up- YOU win! Fell superior now? Good.

          • Jin The Ninja

            i never ‘fell’ anywhere.

          • http://jerrykimbro.daportfolio.com/ Jerry Alan Kimbro

            Oh- pick on a man’s typos! Oh you are smarter than me.

          • Jin The Ninja

            sure am.

          • http://jerrykimbro.daportfolio.com/ Jerry Alan Kimbro

            Modest too ain’t ya?

          • Jin The Ninja

            not really.

          • http://jerrykimbro.daportfolio.com/ Jerry Alan Kimbro

            Well that is obvious.

          • http://hormeticminds.blogspot.com/ Chaorder Gradient

            Jin I think you’re a bug zapper for these kinda peoples.

          • Calypso_1

            Awww yea, Jus like fun times at  Papaw’s house. 
            http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Edv0v2mOL60

          • Lifobryan

            Dude, have you ever considered decaf? It’s just as tasty as regular coffee, but with out the jittery side effects. 

            Just sayin  …..

          • http://jerrykimbro.daportfolio.com/ Jerry Alan Kimbro

            That’s clever. Apropos of nothing, but clever. You are funny clever man.

          • http://jerrykimbro.daportfolio.com/ Jerry Alan Kimbro

            My bad- i just discovered you live in Hong Kong from your facebook- and you aren’t American. of course you hate us.
            So does that mean you are actaullya Communist- a ral live Chinese one? Maybe you are secretly a spy form their government sent to infest Disinfo- where you have made over 2000 comments? You were also born in 1984.

            So to me- that means you don’t know what the hell you are talking about- but i am impressed you speak so many languages.

          • Jin The Ninja

             hong kong has never been (ever) communist, in fact it has one of the most liberal (free) markets in the world. china is not and has not been communist, since before i was born. it is theoretically ‘market socialist,’ but a little more market than social. I would think someone who lived through nixon and regan would remember the deng xiao peng market reforms.

          • http://jerrykimbro.daportfolio.com/ Jerry Alan Kimbro

            Really? And I thought they were all commies. You learn something new every day.

          • Jin The Ninja

            i guess age =/= wisdom.

          • http://jerrykimbro.daportfolio.com/ Jerry Alan Kimbro

            I think I should be insulted, but i don’t understand what you are talking about.

          • Jin The Ninja

            china. remember?

          • http://jerrykimbro.daportfolio.com/ Jerry Alan Kimbro

            Right. I forgot what the original topic was. so you win.
            Feel good about yourself.

          • Jin The Ninja

            i do.

          • http://jerrykimbro.daportfolio.com/ Jerry Alan Kimbro

            Of course you do.

          • Jin The Ninja

            !!!

          • http://jerrykimbro.daportfolio.com/ Jerry Alan Kimbro

            BTW- you do know Ninjas are Japanese- not Chinese?

          • Jin The Ninja

            If i am the supposed commie, honger you already asserted- obviously. You’ve also never heard of otaku? or anime? or manga? or japanese cinema? ‘pan-asian’ culture is a complex but rather significant part of being part of the younger chinese diaspora.

          • http://jerrykimbro.daportfolio.com/ Jerry Alan Kimbro

            Can’t say i have heard of that pan Asian thing. Anime- I avoid it and manga too. Never heard of other stuff. also Pan Chinese Dispora – fancy talk for ” I’m not a commie” I suppose. Sorry I called you one.

          • Jin The Ninja

            when did i say pan-chinese? for a comic book author, you don’t know your own genre?

          • http://jerrykimbro.daportfolio.com/ Jerry Alan Kimbro

            I know my own genre just fine- for example- i know Comic books were a uniquely American creation for decades, till the Japanese co-oped them in the 60s. Like i said, i don’t follow manga or anime, or that style of art. More power to those who do- but it just doesn’t appeal to me.

          • Jin The Ninja

            i guess bande-dessine, manhua both of which originated in the 19th century don’t really matter… lol.

          • http://jerrykimbro.daportfolio.com/ Jerry Alan Kimbro

            Never heard of it. Have you ever heard of the Yellow kid- the first Comic strip to be published successfully in the world- which led to the rise of newspaper comic strips – which in turn made comic books popular? No- probably not.

          • Jin The Ninja

            yes, actually;) but it’s not a very good example for a variety of reasons, nor does it represent the history of comic book publish, but it’s okay jer, can’t fault you for ignorance.

          • http://jerrykimbro.daportfolio.com/ Jerry Alan Kimbro

            Because I’m right. Don’t worry, I want berate you about it.

          • Jin The Ninja

            you ‘want’ berate me about it? for someone whose knowledge of comics/graphic fiction is so limited that he wasn’t familiar with tintin, maybe stop while you’re ahead.

          • http://jerrykimbro.daportfolio.com/ Jerry Alan Kimbro

            I never said I wasn’t famliar with TIN tin. I grew up reading him. I just never heard of that French- Belgian comic crap you threw my way. But I looked it up. It as like early comcis- but with out thought balloons or speech balloons. Dialogue was written underneath the comic. So YOU don’t know what Tin tin was about- since there were thought and speech balloons in the strip.
            But whatever.

          • Jin The Ninja

            tin tin IS a franco belgian bande-dessine. case in point, you are really just not smart.

          • http://jerrykimbro.daportfolio.com/ Jerry Alan Kimbro

            No its not. you need to read up on the subject yourself. Its a french comic book, but it’s not the thing you think it is.

          • Jin The Ninja

            lol. herge is from belgium. google.fr + tin tin. if you are only going to read wikipedia for your responses at least read the entire article.

          • http://jerrykimbro.daportfolio.com/ Jerry Alan Kimbro

            Touche. French enough for you?

          • http://jerrykimbro.daportfolio.com/ Jerry Alan Kimbro

            You’re right- that’s as dumb as being a Chinese Ninja.

          • Jin The Ninja

            lol. i’m just a ninja. no national or ethnic qualifier needed.

          • Calypso_1

            At this point I hope to god that we are merely witnessing a troll dry hump your leg.

          • Jin The Ninja

            me 2…..

          • http://jerrykimbro.daportfolio.com/ Jerry Alan Kimbro

            You know real ninjas don’t advertise the fact.

          • Calypso_1

            You must not be very aware of the origins of ninpo.

          • Jin The Ninja

            or kanji, or kimonos, or kenpo….;)

          • http://jerrykimbro.daportfolio.com/ Jerry Alan Kimbro

            You’re right, never heard of it. Is it something contagious, or do i have to scrape it off the bottom of my shoes?

          • Calypso_1

            Enjoy your diminishing faculties while you can.  The assisted living facilities in Tallahassee aren’t exactly in the top percentile for keeping C.diff under wraps.  Then it won’t just be on the bottom of your shoe and Shamiqua will be all too happy to let you slip and slide the whole shift while you aspirate on your tube feedings.

          • http://jerrykimbro.daportfolio.com/ Jerry Alan Kimbro

            That looks like English, but I haven’t the faintest idea of what you are talking about. I feel like I should be insulted though, but I’m merely puzzled.

          • Calypso_1

            Receptive aphasia is a difficulty many face in your condition. It will be challenging for a while, but eventually you won’t care anymore.

          • http://jerrykimbro.daportfolio.com/ Jerry Alan Kimbro

            What are you saying to me? what does that mean in English?

          • http://jerrykimbro.daportfolio.com/ Jerry Alan Kimbro

            That’s rather cruel isn’t it. Telling me i have a neurological condition – because i don’t agree with you? That’s very mean spirited. But typical of today’s
            dialogue between internet users. Wat eve rhappened to being nice and trying to make friends, listening to others opinion whether you agreed with them or not- oh right. what do i know, I’m neurologically damaged…
            That’s sad.

    • Lifobryan

      I think these pictures look ominous for a few reasons: 1. The statue is dismembered, and one can’t help but see a metaphor in that. There is widespread sentiment today that our liberties are gradually being dismantled … and that the statue’s “Give me your tired, your poor” inscription has fractured into fear & loathing of (certain) foreigners. 2. The statue was designed to be viewed from a lower vantage point, and so its perspective is slightly skewed to account for the fact that the face would normally be 200 ft above the viewer. When we see the face head-on, it looks more masculine and harsh, whereas when seen from the intended lower angle, the face softens and becomes more feminine. In these pictures it appears hostile … which reinforces the metaphors of wounded liberty and hostility toward outsiders. 3. Grainy black & white pictures with smudge-faced over-dressed people almost always feel a bit ominous. (Or like album covers). 

      • Hazy Daisy

        Can the statue stand scrutiny, whether friendly or hostile? I ask because I’ve just looked over its history very superficially, and it seems its symbolic power results more from serendipity than design. A case in point is the “huddled masses” inscription you mention. This was added well after the fact, it seems, when the New York city fathers realized belatedly that arriving immigrants were cheered by the sight of the statue. The poem the inscription derives from, The New Colossus, written my Emma Lazarus, was almost never written. Lazarus said she would not write a poem about a statue (I can relate) but was inspired to do so upon learning of Jews escaping pogroms in Eastern Europe. Unfortunately, Lazarus was Jewish; this being the case one is forced to turn one’s head away from the suspicion of narrow tribal sentiment to the enlightened egalitarianism her poem evokes. And then there’s Jerry Kimbro’s comment about the friendship between the US and France that made the statue possible. Alas, American finance for the statue was sporadic at best, because Americans felt no affection for the statue, regarding it as a French interloper on American soil. 

        • Lifobryan

          I didn’t know about the connection between the poem and the pogroms – that makes a lot of sense & illuminates the phrasing. Thanks!

      • http://jerrykimbro.daportfolio.com/ Jerry Alan Kimbro

        1) It was a message of hope once. 2) They had to break down into pieces to ship it over here. 3) Grainy pics from the 19th century frighten you? How odd.

        • Lifobryan

          1- It was a symbol of hope once. Exactly. Once, being the operative term. The Statue of Liberty, like any symbol, can mean different things to different people at different times. To early 20th century immigrants, it was a symbol of hope & opportunity – as was America itself. Today, many see American icons as symbols of paranoia and imperialism. Civil Rights leaders in the 60s pointed to the crack in the Liberty Bell as a metaphor for a broken system (liberty for some, but not everyone). Seeing the statue in pieces makes a similar point – many people today feel that our liberties are being eroded, whether by governmental paranoia or by corporate greed. Old photos showing the “glowering” face of the statue in pieces can seem like an ominous metaphor to people who are more poetically than literally minded. 

          2 – The statue had to be shipped in pieces? Really?? I thought it strode across the ocean floor like godzilla until it reached the US, where it climbed up onto Ellis Island & started swatting zeppelins with its torch. 

          3 – 19th century photos frightening? No, but depending on the image content, can suggest alternate meanings to people who are more poetically than literally minded. 

          • Hazy Daisy

            And started swatting zeppelins with its torch.

            Now that IS funny.

          • http://jerrykimbro.daportfolio.com/ Jerry Alan Kimbro

            That’s pretty funny. You win!