Vegan Privilege

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We’ve all heard of white privilege and male privilege and white male privilege, but is veganism a privilege?  And does it need to be checked?  There are many more discussions of the subject online than you probably imagined.

An argument in favor, from My Life as a Feminista:

Choosing to have a vegan diet is privileged for numerous reasons:

  • It is a privilege to have access to information about alternative diets; this includes knowing what recipes to use, what foods to purchase, and how to make things that taste good.
  • Depending on where you live, you may or may not have access to a wide range of vegan foods.  Being able to go to the grocery stores requires transportation to/from; the closest store may not be vegan-friendly and you may have to drive for many miles to find a store where you can get all your shopping done.  This is further complicated if you rely on public transportation or rides from others, in that you are only able to go to the specific stores on their routes, which may or may not have a range of vegan foods.
  • Subsequently, vegan food is often very expensive.  For example: fresh produce, dairy-alternatives, olive oil, spices, tofu, etc.
  • Having the time and energy to prepare your own vegan food is a privilege.  If you are working many hours a week and/or doing intense labor, spending time preparing meals at home may not be feasible and/or desirable, especially for a big family.
  • If you do go out to eat, vegan foods are not usually marked as such on menus (again this depends a lot on where you live).  Therefore, you are likely to have to know enough about vegan foods to ask questions and understand the different ingredients.
  • Many people cannot be vegan for health reasons, such as allergies, anemia, food intolerances, etc.
  • Choosing to be vegan implies that you have a choice over what foods you can and do eat.  If the food you eat is prepared by family members, friends, a partner, or a school that does not serve vegan food, it is a privilege to be able to supplement those meals on your own.
  • In many religions and cultures, it is custom to eat meat and/or dairy products, as well as sacrifice animals.  If one chooses to be vegan, they would therefore not participate in these same activities and [potentially] face negative consequences from family members, friends, etc.

But Emily Stoffer writes at The Cognition of the Ipsographic Kalotypographer:

I was called out on being privileged today for being Vegan and being able to “choose what I eat”, and I have a few things to say.

And before I begin my argument, because I discuss the potential problems with white privilege, I want to begin by recognizing my privilege. As a white female I am aware of the distinct gap in discrimination, particularly in America. And though I think it is important for all people to understand and recognize their privilege, I also think there are very important problems to note about how the idea of privilege affects groups of individuals, society, etc. Please keep this in mind while reading my assessment of the Vegan Privilege argument. And please also keep in mind that this argument is from a class based and hierarchical outlook on the structure of society, particularly a Socialist based view point. Keep this in mind when I discuss similar but different groups and structural problems of racism and capitalism.

One: I hate the idea of Vegan privilege for the same reason I hate the idea of white privilege. It keeps two similar but obviously different groups from uniting under the basis that one of those groups has a privilege that keeps them from empathizing with the other. I am not saying that white privilege does not exist. Its obvious in our systematically racist, sexist, capitalist world that I-as a white person- will never feel the amount of discrimination as a black, Latino or any other person of color. But the problem is that that is NOT what whipping out the white privilege argument does. It doesn’t put white people in their place by forcing them to recognize that they are inherently in a position of privilege in society. What it DOES DO, however is tell white people that it is wrong to empathize with a group that is different than them. It tells white people that they cannot hold a sign stating “I am Troy Davis” or “I am Trayvon Martin” or “we are all Palestinian” because there is no possible way that a white person could identify with someone that has been affected so differently in our white privileged society. It keeps the structure in place by reaffirming that Blacks, Mexicans, etc are lower than whites. And, in turn, keeps people (an in the case of Veganism: animals) from uniting under the very important fact that they are fundamentally the same. And that is exactly what the Vegan Privilege argument does. It asserts that I cannot possibly empathize with a nonhuman animal and choose a healthy, compassionate, environmentally friendly diet and lifestyle without putting myself in a place of privilege because not all human animals can choose what they eat (or IF they eat at all).

Which leads me into my second point: the fact that you, as an omnivore, have the choice to eat and ravage ANYTHING you would like is privileged. Simply because my lifestyle keeps me from engaging in many free food events on campus does not make me privileged, it makes me selfless. The fact that YOU eat everything and anything that is in your path without considering for a moment the health and environmental implications of your actions puts you in a VERY privileged position. One that I, as a Vegan, attempt to eliminate through education and personal action.

Thirdly: Saying that a Vegan is privileged because its costs a considerable amount of money to be Vegan. All I have to say to that is SHUT UP. A Vegan diet is not only one of the most healthy and environmentally friendly food choices but it is also the CHEAPEST. Ever notice that only developing countries eat meat, while underdeveloped countries tend to have a diet consisting of rice, beans and vegetables? That’s because the amount of money that it costs to grow, feed, and care for a livestock animal is INCREDIBLY EXPENSIVE, especially when you consider the ratio of water and food used to the amount of food produced (which is amount 19737 liters of water and 16 pounds of grain to one pound of beef). And much more expensive than they Vegan counterpart of water needed to produce grain and vegetables. This, of course, applies less to today as we have globalized, assembly line factories that produce everything from toys to automobiles to food that allow it to be produced in mass for a lower price, but the fact still holds true.

I understand that one is choice (Veganism) and one is not (structural Racism)- though to a Vegan the choice of not exploiting animals is not really a choice at all- but I feel as though the use of them as arguments against people have very similar affects. Both assert that is the obligation and problem of the individual, letting the true beneficiaries off the hook. With white privilege the whites in power, the ruling class who actually put the structure in place are let off the hook by accusing all white’s of benefiting from racism when, in fact, the majority of middle and lower class white people have no say in the structure or the oppression that occurs beyond individual agency. And as individual agency is good, it does very little when battling a large structural problem like racism projected by the ruling class. And similarly with Vegan privilege, those who own the factory farms, etc who are ACTUALLY benefiting from price of cattle at the expense of the exploitation of the animal are ignored and the heat is put on individual Vegans who are privileged because they have the choice to eat and choose what they eat when so many can’t. Again, ignoring the large structure that is in place. And ignoring facts like if the structure that exploits animals was abolished, we would have enough food to solve the world hunger problem fourteen times over.

Saying that you personally cannot be Vegan because it is too privileged is ridiculous. That is like pointing out that I am privileged because I live in a developed country or that I am white or that I am Vegan. Rather than focusing on the fact that that may put me in a privileged position, why don’t you funnel your efforts into implementing change in out systematically corrupt society in order that those things are no longer considered privileged because their opposites will no longer be discriminated against!

,

  • http://twitter.com/kaustisk kaustisk

    Enough with the privileged talk. If you have access to the internet you are privileged. Anyone reading this is privileged. Acknowledge & move on already. Agriculture created civilization, civilization brought hierarchy, hierarchy brought privilege. Its really not that hard to understand. If you want to end privilege you must end civilization. Feeling guilty or judgmental over whatever form of privilege is in vogue is counterproductive. 

    • peter ballard

      Agriculture did not create civilization, the gods provided it for us.  The gods took our apish form and created us in their image, to mine gold for their planet.  They trained “The Adam”, that adam or serf procreated with eve and boom!  With the 12 gods/pharaohs ruling over humanity on Earth for…  320,000? years.  They gave us religion, agriculture, and so on and so forth…  I’m not giving the lecture nor will I paraphrase the book There Were Giants Upon the Earth  Read it, digest, & argue with me about it later.

      • okOkay

        …what?

      • eeker

         eek!

      • TennesseeCyberian

        Should we be talking about extraterrestrial privilege, then?

      • Redacted

        BURN THE HERETIC

      • Biggelsworth

         AND Lets not forget, they ‘gods’ are still the ones calling the shots in the background. The hidden-hand?
        Indeed.

      • HansomeDansSprinklerSystems

        i’ll call Agent Mulder and i’m sure he’ll be able to explain it better 

      • HansomeDansSprinklerSystems

        i’ll call Agent Mulder and i’m sure he’ll be able to explain it better 

    • http://nwonotepad.com/ patlalrique

      We still can be kind toward people who aren’t on the right side of privilege. We live in a world where there is inequalities and we must have the class to not stomp on the person who are the most vulnerable.

  • Festacles

    if all you have to say is SHUT UP, then stop blathering after you say it.

  • Manhattan Project Playboy

    With the Zombie Apocalypse beginning to launch, I’m sure we will find that vegans will make the tastiest consumption, much in the way that grass-fed cattle produce the best tasting steaks.

    They will, undoubtedly, be the first to be devoured alive for their succulent goodness and we will, for a brief time, enjoy the absence of their smug and sanctimonious prattle.

    • Debby Hurst

       All the smug on here seems to be from carcass munchers.  of course vegans would taste much better than people who eat dead shit.  Duh.  Clearly vegans need to defend better against the zombie apocalypse.  The question that begs answering is what will work best for defense against vegan munching zombies? Flame thrower?  Grenades?  Flax seed oil?

      • Thom Vane

        Vegetables are also ‘dead shit’.

      • zombieslapper

        I feel sorry for all the plants you mindlessly slaughter, you fucking consumer.

        • ClubGugly

          “you fucking consumer”, what do you mean by that? It sounds like you don’t quite know what you mean. I bet you don’t.

          • Debby Hurst

             i think it might be mouth diarrhea? 

        • http://hormeticminds.blogspot.com/ Chaorder Gradient

          I don’t feel sorry for the plants, but i do feel sorry for the inches of topsoil lost every year due to unsustainable farming strategies

          • Calypso_1

            Humus is a beautiful thing.  I’m working to convert some of my property to terra preta.

      • http://hormeticminds.blogspot.com/ Chaorder Gradient

        I’m really unsure that you know what “smug” means.

        • Chaossmerhandz

           well, do u understand what douchebuffalo means?   similar to smug but more lame.  see:  mirror.

          • http://hormeticminds.blogspot.com/ Chaorder Gradient

            Debby you should stop making new accounts to try and defend yourself, its kindof embarrassing for you.

      • http://hormeticminds.blogspot.com/ Chaorder Gradient

        I’m really unsure that you know what “smug” means.

    • http://internetkhole.blogspot.com/ Pb

      but after beign eaten by a zombie, they will turn into vegan zombies which will be even more pompous and irritating.

  • apdoo

    This was really very hilarious: the self-importance of vegans never fails to astound! Privileged, indeed. Privy to a dangerous practice like smoking or coal mining is more like it. Some things are better left alone, just like uranium. 

    Not only is veganism itself questionable as a sustainable philosophy (farming causes a lot of pollution from soil runoff & chemicals such as pesticides and fertilizer), it is also NOT healthy. Humans need meat and animal fats to stay strong as well as to keep their brains healthy.  The cholesterol from animals goes to building our brains.  Highly recommend reading the Vegetarian Myth. That should dispel any questions of whether being vegan is “privileged”. Oh, and to add one more thing: SHUT UP!

    • mannyfurious

      I don’t really care one way or the other what a person chooses to make of their diet. I do think that the results speak for themselves. By in large, in my experience, vegans and vegetarians age much more quickly and don’t seem as strong and vibrant physically. There are exceptions, obviously and some people have made themselves quite a healthy life with those kinds of diet. It’s just not often as far as I can tell. 

      • Debby Hurst

         Ummm…. you are ridiculous.  I am a lifelong, second generation vegan.  I teach at least 4 physical exercise classes a day, have no wrinkles and more energy than anyone I know.  Where do you get your info from?  try reading this, or visit veganbodybuilders.com…. http://www.ecologos.org/omni.htm

        • http://twitter.com/JointSPC Joint Specialist

          You are making manny’s point for him! You are the exception to the rule. Yes, veganism CAN be a healthy option for a few people. But in my completely subjective experience I agree with Manny.  Of the about 30 vegans I know only 1 is healthy looking and strong.  All the rest are weak, pale, get sick frequently, and have problems concentrating. The one exception is a 2nd gen vegan, btw, which probably has something to do with it.

          • http://www.facebook.com/eagle.three.feather.woman Leigh Schroeder Salvage

            “Eat for your Blood Type” – ever read that book? I’ve tried to be vegetarian a few times – but as a Type O Blood person – this book asserts that it’s not healthy for ME.  Also as someone who generally develops anemia while being vegetarian, I personally believe it’s not healthy for ME.  I’m a vegetarian wanna be.  Perhaps different diets are good / best for different people?  I have a vegetarisn child who chose this and is very healthy and strong.  I believe I would not be so healthy and strong with this choice.  Why can’t people see we are all different and have unique needs both nutritional and personal / emotional?

          • Debby Hurst

             I am type O.  See my post below.  The reason a plant strong diet is the healthiest diet for all is because of digestive anatomy, which is the same for all humans, and does not change with blood type.  I tried eating milk and fish for one year(hey, what if all these people that think eating animals is healthy are right?), and gained weight and felt terrible!!!!.  I really do not understand why people insist that something that we have so much trouble digesting is good for you.  It looks like addiction to me, because once you experience life on a clean diet, clean fuel, your body feels so amazing, and can just rebuild its tissues without all the energy used up for digesting things that are not optimal for our specific system.  You don’t feed a cat plants, or a cow meat….  or at least you shouldn’t, so why feed a human animal carcass?  If you are starving, that is a different scenario – but plants, fruits and grains are much cheaper than animal products.

          • http://hormeticminds.blogspot.com/ Chaorder Gradient

            Digestive anatomy(the big organs…) yeah is the same. But thats like saying “all animals are the same because they all live on the same planet. That is a false equivalence. The proteomics of the issue are different, not everyone has the same enzymes  in the same proportions which is all that really matters in this case. This is why some people have no problem eating dairy till they die(mostly of european descent) while some cannot past weaning age… In the same way some do not have the enzymes to process plants the way you do… in the same way that you might not process meat as well as others do.

            If you believe in lamarckian evolution (its okay, nobody does) then you are really healthy on a vegan diet BECAUSE you are a second generation vegan. And people who are a second generation pure carnivore, just can not process plants the way you do. Stop believing you know everything about these issues. You are clearly a fanatic that knows little about what you are talking about. I don’t doubt that you are a healthy individual. I doubt that you are an intelligent one.

          • Debby Hurst

             It is the length of the intestine, and the way it moves is what decides whether flesh(which peristaltic action because our digestive track requires fiber to move, cannot grip) or a fiber based diet -plant-strong fruits and veggies should be used-

            Digestive enzymes are deficient in most people nowadays, so the proportions are off for most people in america, and most people need some sort of therapy in this area.  As to my intelligence, beating you on every point is not really a good gage, but please do not worry, I do just fine.  Here are some more facts, if those interest you, but they havnt seemed to stop you yet on your poorly informed posts:)

            Humans can survive on all kinds of diets, they just develop degenerative issues relative to exercise, and how much they do to neutralize poor eating habits.  Just because someone can survive on something does not mean they thrive on it. You are confusing “to do” with “to be”.  You are a natural vegetarian, you choose to eat animals.  Choosing to do something does not change what you are.  You can choose to quack like a duck, but you still will have a human tummy, that responds best to plant-strong food, albeit maybe less friends, and a few more feathers…..

            Stomach Capacity

            CARNIVORE: 60% to 70% of total volume of digestive tract

            HERBIVORE: Less than 30% of total volume of digestive tract

            OMNIVORE: 60% to 70% of total volume of digestive tract

            HUMAN: 21% to 27% of total volume of digestive tract

            Length of Small Intestine

            CARNIVORE: 3 to 6 times body length

            HERBIVORE: 10 to more than 12 times body length

            OMNIVORE: 4 to 6 times body length

            HUMAN: 10 to 11 times body length

            Colon

            CARNIVORE: Simple, short and smooth

            HERBIVORE: Long, complex; may be sacculated

            OMNIVORE: Simple, short and smooth

            HUMAN: Long, sacculated

          • http://hormeticminds.blogspot.com/ Chaorder Gradient

            Interesting that you can quote random statistics. Especially when they are both bullshit, and disproportionately serve your attempted points. I’ll assume your statistics are right except for the human intestinal length.

            The human intestine can range anywhere from as short as 15 feet, to as long as 32 feet(where you probably got the statistic of 10~11x quoting it as an average rather than an upper limit).

            Also guess what? the stomache capacity statistic is in direct reference to the intestinal length. if your intestines are half the length as they are for some people, magically, the % volume of the stomache volume is double, bringing it up to around 50%.

            So you did a good case of proving my point that different people are different and have different needs even physiologically.

          • Debby Hurst

             What passes as logic in your mind is strange. So, I will discontinue that rational. Clearly, YOU were meant to eat the bodies of various animals, pigs, dogs, cows, rabbits, birds.  Please do what your “science” tells you and reap the results.  But, don’t act confused when those rewards are degenerative diseases.  You reap what you sow.

          • http://hormeticminds.blogspot.com/ Chaorder Gradient

            Its okay, sometimes the complexity of things are too much for people who refuse to think on their own.

            Go back to your mental masterbating idealistic paradigm, there’s nothing to gain here(or anywhere) for people like you.

          • Debby Hurst

            Hey.  your mean.

          • http://hormeticminds.blogspot.com/ Chaorder Gradient

            its you’re.

          • Cat

            Sorry, can’t take anyone who thinks the blood group diet has any vailidity seriously at all.

          • Cat

            Sorry, can’t take anyone who thinks the blood group diet has any vailidity seriously at all.

          • http://hormeticminds.blogspot.com/ Chaorder Gradient

            Thats an interesting theory, hadn’t heard it before. Do they have bio-chemical explanations for this blood-type restricted diet? or is it determined through trials and statistics?

          • Monkey See Monkey Do

            Neither, but i’m glad someones asking the question.

          • Calypso_1

            It’s hokum. 

          • http://hormeticminds.blogspot.com/ Chaorder Gradient

            yeah I assume so, but i always like giving the wildest things the benefit of the doubt until its very obviously false. (occam’s razor is too simple for me)

        • mannyfurious

          Did you read the entirety of my post? Yes, there are exceptions. There are vegan bodybuilders and MMA fighters and everything else. These are the exceptions as far as I can tell. I only wrote about my own personal experiences–which are just that: my own experiences. 

          As an example, my wife’s had access to a personal trainer through a contract with her place of employment. This personal trainer is a very nice lady, and ostensibly healthy, since she is a personal trainer and all. She is also a vegan, and she looks ten years older than her age and frail as hell. Here’s someone who should look and be healthy since her entire life is about being as much, but she looks like hell. The human body has evolved to include a diet with meat and animal fats. Just like everything else, moderation is probably best, but to cut out such an integral part of our development is bound to have odd repercussions. 

          • Debby Hurst

             I have seen the opposite to be true – look around you we are in the middle of an epidemic.  Everyone(or nearly everyone) in America is overweight and looks bad.  The vegans I know, which is about 150 of loose nit group all look very good, with high energy.  Meanwhile, all my students and many of my friends that eat animals complain of all kinds of physical ailments, most of which are cleared up by a plant strong diet.  Why suffer?

            I am O-type blood, BTW, and the eat right for your type idea is a misunderstanding of our digestive anatomy, which is the same, regardless of your blood type.  Evolution only happens if there is die off before reproductive age.  Most of the problems of eating animals do not show up until later in life – late 20s to 30s.  Read below for more scientific info.

            Deficiency can happen to vegans, animal eaters and those in between.  Quality of food also counts.

            The Human “Omnivore”:
            a mythological beast 

                 One of the most
            ridiculous and persistent false claims made by armchair nutritionists,
            meatarian propagandists, and even academics, who really should know better,
            is that the human species is an “omnivore”; that is, it should
            eat both plant and animal matter.

                 In general,
            this error is based on the accidental, or perhaps intentional, confusing
            of the verbs “to be” and “to do”.  If the human
            “is” a natural omnivore, then we should have ALL the physical
            and biochemical equipment that is NECESSARY to run down, kill with our
            bare hands, tear asunder, eat, and properly digest, RAW animal prey, just
            as ALL natural omnivores, or carnivores, do.  Just looking at
            our bodies will conclusively prove that we do not have the claws or talons
            necessary to catch and hold animal prey, and we do not have the sharp,
            shearing teeth necessary to tear, not chew, animal flesh.  We are
            not fast enough to outrun and catch animals.  Natural omnivores
            or carnivores do NOT chew their eaten flesh, they tear it into chunks
            and swallow them whole.  We do not have the “constant tendency
            for the last upper premolar and the first lower molar to engage and form
            long longitudinal opposed shearing blades (the carnassials)”, which
            are a common characteristic of natural carnivores and omnivores.[1]

                 No human cultural-carnivore
            kills its animal prey with his/her natural equipment, nor do they eat
            their animal prey raw.  I have challenged countless meatarians to
            do so in the past 30 years, and NONE have shown the courage of their conceptual
            convictions and done so.  Why?  Simply because we are NOT an
            “omnivore”.  In fact, we have strong anti-killing instincts.
             Try to kill an animal with your bare hands to demonstrate this.

                 Any second-grader
            could differentiate between the verbs “be” and “do”,
            yet this important distinction is totally ignored by cultural carnivores,
            and even academics with PhD’s, who foolishly claim that because humans
            have been DOing cultural-carnivorism for a long time, that somehow (never
            explained) magically, we ARE “omnivores”.  They want to
            believe that DOing modifies BEing. They fail to understand the profound
            difference between Nature, and inviolable Natural Laws, and silly, self-destructive
            local cultural customs.  By their absurd and faulty logic: because
            some humans DO murder, and because murder has existed throughout human
            history, ALL humans ARE born murderers.

                 If one wanted
            to produce a logical test to see if the human was a natural omnivore,
            the procedure would be:
                 1>  produce a detailed physiological
            and biochemical inventory of all animal species that are natural omnivores,
                 2>  list the commonalties among
            them,
                 3>  test this list against
            natural omnivores and other species to determine its discriminative abilities;
            i.e. test the test, and finally, and only if the test has been verified
            to be accurate and correct,
                 4>  see if the human parameters
            fit this test or not.

                 Of course, this
            quite obvious test mechanism has not been established, and any unsupported
            references to human “omnivores”, regardless of the source, are
            confirmations that only cultural whims are being reported, certainly NOT
            the imperative physiological and biochemical attributes.

                 For more detailed
            analysis of the human “omnivore” mythology, and the bizarre
            distortions of fact and logic necessary to make this false claim, we can
            look to the always-amusing, misologistic BeyondVeg
            website.  This site is produced by a crackpot who, apparently failing
            in his personal efforts to become a raw-fooder, has stolen the title of
            one of my articles for his web domain name, and has gone on a rampage
            to attempt to discredit plant-based diets in general by applied pseudo-science.
             His state of mental dysfunction is demonstrated by his repeatedly
            claiming in a vegetarian/vegan discussion list that he could read my “emotions”
            with his modem, and his bizarre claims that John Coleman and I are really
            the same person.  This is quite a feat, as John lives in England,
            and I live in Florida.  Co-location, perhaps?

                 One hears hollow
            claims that since “Paleolithic man” ate flesh, that modern humans
            are somehow “adapted” to do so.  In fact, a Paleolithic
            diet cult is being developed.

                 The “Paleolithic
            argument” runs something like this: The proto-human was indeed a
            frugivore (eating primarily fruit, such as modern chimps) 50 million years
            ago (MYA) to 2 MYA, when the “appearance of stone tools and cultures
            at this time” coincided with “increased meat-eating”[W1].
             Well, that’s the end of the argument, as its fatal flaw is revealed:
            the fact is that “increased meat-eating” occurred ONLY because
            of tool use, and since tools, including fire, are a product of culture,
            not Nature, cultural practices, such as those powerful self-destructive
            cultural practices of today, are totally unrelated to our natural nutritional
            needs, which are programmed at the genetic level.

                 Anthropologists’
            fantasies that humans commonly ‘scavenged’ dead, putrefying flesh left
            to rot by natural carnivores, or produced by the natural death of animals,
            are totally absurd.  I would challenge any such confused academics
            to test their own theory by actually eating some rotting road-kill, raw,
            with their bare hands.  With this simple test, said academic would
            immediately be forced to face reality instead of being hopelessly lost
            in vague, unsupportable, academic speculation.  Let a group of academics
            who propagate this silly theory actually go to the field and fight off
            a pack of wild dogs or lions to get their leftovers, or chow down on a
            putrefying corpse crawling with maggots.  Yummy!!  The human
            is programmed at the genetic level to vigorously avoid rotting protein,
            and is particularly sensitive to such repulsive odors which produce instantaneous,
            powerful, gag and nausea reflexes in even the most stalwart meatarian.
             Yet, even ‘educated’ academics with PhD’s can not deal with this
            simple and overwhelmingly obvious fact in their boundless zeal to reconstruct
            a long-lost past from infinitesimally small amounts of data; and worse,
            massage this virtually nonexistent data with their local culture’s conditioned
            belief systems to produce wildly imaginative, yet obviously false, claims
            about the human being.

                 Although some
            cultural human may have, post-tool, consumed rotting animal flesh intentionally,
            the inherent repulsiveness of which was masked by the destructive, pyrolytic
            effects of fire, the fact is that the natural human would not have left
            any lingering evidence of its natural diet, just as the modern chimp does
            not leave any trace of its existence.  Eat some fruit, drop the seeds
            on the ground, eat some leaves, eat some nuts — where is the physical
            evidence that lingers for 10′s or 100′s of thousands of years??  None!
             So, all so-called Paleolithic “evidence” of human flesh-eating
            is merely a collection of self-selected, statistically-insignificant cultural
            artifacts, totally unrelated to our species’ true nutritional needs.

                 Further, such
            physical evidence of human flesh-eating, such as tool-scarred bones or
            ancient fire pits, is found only in northern areas which are well outside
            of the natural ecological niche for our tropical ape species; thus, any
            evidence of cultural diets so remote from our proper ecological niche
            is totally irrelevant to any understanding of what the natural diet for
            our species is.  This ecologically-relevant, and crucially-important
            fact is universally, and conveniently, ignored in any discussions of Paleolithic
            humans.  Paleolithic (tool using) humans are not natural humans and
            are just as irrelevant as any modern cultural group and their modern self-destructive
            dietary practices.

                 Further, “Because
            of the considerably harsher conditions and seasonal variation in food
            supply, hunting became more important to bridge the seasonal gaps, as
            well as the ability to store nonperishable items such as nuts, bulbs,
            and tubers for the winter when the edible plants withered in the autumn.
            All of these factors, along with clothing (and also perhaps fire), helped
            enable colonization of the less hospitable environment.” clearly
            admits that such humans were well outside of their natural ecological
            niche which would provide the proper nutrition for our species, thus they
            were forced to consume highly foreign, non-natural “foods” just
            to survive.  So, it is obvious that any claims as to the applicability
            of the Paleolithic diet to any understanding of the natural diet for our
            species are totally, and unavoidably, bogus.  They are shams firmly
            based on lies and intentional distortions.  They are merely other
            examples of how “curiosity killed the cat”.  See the movie:
            The Quest For Fire for a little insight into the perils created
            by abandoning our ecological niche.http://www.ecologos.org/omni.htm

          • http://hormeticminds.blogspot.com/ Chaorder Gradient

            You are so absolutely full of shit, it is unbelievable. And that you would go on such a long rambling tirade of nonsense is astounding. I don’t even know where to start. But here goes. (i don’t want to repeat myself like you did, so I think i’m going to need reference points for this to be sufficiently concise)

            A) Seems like the same point you beat as a dead horse is that any action performed by a tool using human is not a “real” human or a “natural” human, because tools are cultural, and not natural. This is patently absurd, humans are culture, and our culture is humans; if you try to separate all that our culture has made us into, then you are living in a delusional world where we are just corrupted little elves that should go back living in the trees. Sorry, ma’am we’re way past that fork in the road.

            B) You seem to misunderstand evolution, and have a lot of nostalgia for what humans once were. There may have been, and probably was a time where humans never ate meat, but that time is long in the past. I have no qualms of you trying to go back to where our ancestors might have been, but know that it will be an uphill battle, and even if you don’t want to kill animals, you may have to kill humans when the vegan-carnivore wars begin in 8231AD when the species has sufficiently diverged. Prepare your decendants.

            C) What is this nonsense about people not willing to eat roadkill. Wolves don’t eat food that has already been toxified by microorganisms, why would you think that would be a sufficient test of humans willingness to eat meat. You are brainwashed into thinking eating meat is synonymous with being carrion.

            D) Finally I think you conflate the effects of the terrible dietary habits created since the industrial revolution solely on meat eating, when it is a package deal, meat eating, and plant eating are very disturbed and far from what a healthy diet should be.

            1) ”
            Everyone(or nearly everyone) in America is overweight and looks bad.” – See (D)

            2) ”
            this error is based on the accidental, or perhaps intentional, confusing of the verbs “to be” and “to do”.  If the human 
            “is” a natural omnivore, ……” – This argument is weak at best and stupid at worst.  If something is “doing” something for millenia, then it “is” something that “does” that something. Also See (B)

            3) ”
             If one wanted to produce a logical test to see if the human was a natural omnivore, the procedure would be: ” – This is probably your only viable argument, but it still fails when you See (A). Tools are our culture, and humans cannot be understood in a meaningful way without considering the existence of tools. They replaced all of the things that you believe should be tested for.

            4) ”
            we can look to the always-amusing, misologistic BeyondVeg website.” – I’ve never heard of this, and i’m sure noone outside of vegan circles ever has either. This is effectively a strawman, as any ridiculous claims made on this site are not held by anyone outside that site.

            5) ”
            One hears hollow claims that since “Paleolithic man” ate flesh, that modern humans are somehow “adapted” to do so.”
             - See (B). You cite evolution consistently, then disdainfully use the phrase “somehow ‘adapted’” as if it were impossible? Do you know what evolution means?6) “…as its fatal flaw is revealed: the fact is that “increased meat-eating” occurred ONLY because of tool use, and since tools, including fire, are a product of culture, not Nature, cultural practices, such as those powerful self-destructive cultural practices of today, are totally unrelated to our natural nutritional needs, which are programmed at the genetic level.” – See (A) and (B)

            7) ”
            Anthropologists’ fantasies that humans commonly ‘scavenged’ dead, putrefying flesh left to rot by natural carnivores, or produced by the natural death of animals, are totally absurd.” -Of course it is absurd, so absurd that i don’t know of any meat eater that would actually believe it. For some reason you take it as a common belief when it is not. See (C)

            8) ”
             So, all so-called Paleolithic “evidence” of human flesh-eating is merely a collection of self-selected, statistically-insignificant cultural artifacts, totally unrelated to our species’ true nutritional needs.” -There is no such thing as a statistically-insignificant cultural artifact. See (A)

            9) ”
            Further, such physical evidence of human flesh-eating, such as tool-scarred bones or ancient fire pits, is found only in northern areas which are well outside of the natural ecological niche for our tropical ape species…” -Wait, so artifacts showing evidence of meat eating can be thrown out simply because they are in locations where human predecessors weren’t expected to be? Then where did the damn artifacts come from? this claim doesn’t even make any semblance of sense. Also, See (A)10) ” ‘Because of the considerably harsher conditions and seasonal variation in food supply, hunting became more important to bridge the seasonal gaps…” – This is called evolution, cultural evolution, happens before biological evolution. See (B)

          • Debby Hurst

             It is ok that you do not understand natural laws.  It is your choice, and I fully support you in it.  It is also your right to not believe in gravity.  Of course, your belief has little to do with actual reality. 

            I have experienced both sides of the coin, and speak not only with the knowledge of science, but also the knowledge of experience.  Do you?

          • http://hormeticminds.blogspot.com/ Chaorder Gradient

            Well its clear to me now that you cannot actually hold a real argument or successfully defeat any points contrary to your belief system.

            You claim anything man-made is unnatural, and therefore does not merit value in our reality. If this is the case don’t stop at veganism. You need to remove all tools and technologies from your existence.

            Stop using the computer
            Stop using any transportation method
            Stop using a fork to eat your salad
            Stop using a cup to drink things
            Stop wearing shoes
            Stop wearing clothes
            Stop using soap
            Stop taking medicine
            Stop living in your house
            Stop using language altogether(its technology) 

          • Debby Hurst

             mean.

          • JaceD

            haha I’ve been reading every response of yours to Debby Hurst, classic, I haven’t seen a good intellectual wipping in a long time.

          • Cheftommyboy

            What are you??? Some kind of Vegan Hitler !!!

          • Debby Hurst

             oh wow! you just now got around to calling me hitler now?  I predicted someone would do that days ago…. my my, seems i was wrong again….  off by two days.  and i just shaved my upper lip-stache off yesterday trying to leave my vegan hitler ways behind…..  jeez. minus one point for lack of originality..

          • Brother

            this site states that humans didnt eat veggies mostly because those foods were seasonal. 
            http://www.redicecreations.com/article.php?id=20277 

          • Monkey See Monkey Do

            Bring the cultural evolution on.

          • http://hormeticminds.blogspot.com/ Chaorder Gradient

            Couldn’t stop it even if I wanted to.

          • mannyfurious

            You are fucking nuts. You don’t give vegans a bad name, you give brainwashed cultists a bad name. 

          • Debby Hurst

             I didn’t know I could give you a bad name.  Not all brainwashed cultists are bad though, some are quite entertaining, so don’t hate yourself.:)  Happy 4th!!

        • Calypso_1

          If you had no wrinkles your skin would burst like a plump juicy frankfurter whenever you moved.

      • http://hormeticminds.blogspot.com/ Chaorder Gradient

        I would assume the vegans that age quickly, do it in a manner where they don’t consider the necessity for complete protein, which is not necessarily harder to do, just less mindless than occasionally eating a steak.

        • Debby Hurst

           Your assumptions are wrong.  I am vegan because I like to be pretty.  Please study digestive anatomy, and you will understand the protein myth.  But, then at 35 I still do not have even one wrinkle.  How many people do you know like that? My dad is almost 70 and looks like he is in his late 40′s.  He leads massive hikes.  But, how does he do it without a little steak?  Simply understanding digestive anatomy, and the actual needs of your body instead of being a tool of the USDA propaganda machine that meat is the best source of “protein” and that you need tons of protein to be healthy.  Your body synthesizes protein from amino acids, and a simplified analogy would be that of a cow eating grass and growing to be 2000lbs.  how do they do that?  it must be magic, or maybe they are sneaking a steak in now and again….

          • http://hormeticminds.blogspot.com/ Chaorder Gradient

            Wow. Thats the kinda response that gives vegans a bad name. I was actually defending veganism(in the sense that it is viable, but only if done correctly), and you bite my head off? Well, then I’ll bite back.

            Newsflash: unless you’re a heavy smoker or do some other traditionally terrible things to your health, you don’t get wrinkles by 35. Thats not evidence for veganism’s value at all. And maybe your dad is healthy because he goes on massive hikes, and not the other way around. I never said steak was necessary, i just said it is a very mindless way to get a complete protein. Something that you apparently don’t believe in?

            Complete protein is where you have all the necessary amino acids (necessary because the human body DOES NOT PRODUCE them). It is about quality, not quantity, and and animal protein happens to always have the quality (even if some people think quantity is the important part). One of the many causes of senescence(physiological process of aging) is caused by a slow regeneration of of cells, due to a lack of protein density, due to a lack of the consisting amino acids. Vegans CAN get complete protein, but they have to go out of their way  and know they need it unlike as i said before, a meat-eater simply mindlessly eating a steak. However I suppose it is technically possible for a vegan and not know what is necessary to be healthy by being a spoiled second-generation vegan(you), having the diet spoonfed to them by their probably wiser parents. Which is also not necessarily a bad thing unless you’re going around being smug about things that you don’t even understand.

          • Debby Hurst

             I think you have out-smugged every vegan I know. 

            When I tell people I’m vegan, often the first question out of their mouths is, “Ok, so where do you get your protein?”

            As soon as I hear this question, I do my usual eye roll and
            immediately know that I’m dealing with… well… someone who doesn’t know
            very much about plants. The idea that plant foods are somehow devoid of
            protein is nothing but a myth.

            Myth #1: Plants are low in protein

            Plant foods are generally abundant in protein. For example, lettuce
            gets 34% of its calories from protein, and broccoli gets 45% of its
            calories from protein. Spinach is 49%. Cauliflower is 40%. Celery is
            21%. Beans range from 23% to 54% depending on the variety. Grains are
            8% to 31%. Nuts and seeds are 8% to 21%. Fruits are the lowest at
            around 5-8% on average.

            If you wanted to suffer from protein deficiency, you’d either have to
            seriously restrict total calories (i.e. starve yourself), or you’d have
            to eat a really messed up, unbalanced diet like nothing but low-protein
            junk foods and certain fruits. But in those cases, protein deficiency
            probably won’t be your biggest risk.

            Personally I’ve never met anyone suffering from protein deficiency in
            the USA, vegan or otherwise. The much greater risk (in the USA at
            least) is overconsumption of protein.

            Myth #2: Plant proteins are incomplete

            Another myth is the idea that you need to combine different plant
            foods to form complete proteins. The idea was that most plant foods
            only contained some of the essential amino acids,
            so you’d have to combine “incomplete” foods like beans and rice to form
            meals that contained complete proteins. This idea was put forth in the
            1971 book Diet for a Small Planet by Frances Moore Lappé. It
            was a million-copy bestseller. Unfortunately, many people still aren’t
            aware that this theory was later found to be completely false, as Lappé
            herself recanted her original theory in later works that were far less
            popular. The truth is that most plant foods do contain all the
            essential amino acids, but furthermore, your body will store amino acids
            in a pool between meals — it doesn’t even need to get all the
            essentials in a single meal. So the theory of combining plant foods to
            form complete proteins isn’t even remotely correct. Of course, lifelong
            vegans already knew Lappé’s theory was wrong, as they weren’t suffering
            from protein deficiencies regardless of how they combined their meals.

            Many people today are still under the mistaken assumption that
            getting enough protein from plants is difficult or impossible. I
            particularly love it when people explain to me why I should either be
            dead or suffering from protein deficiency symptoms. I haven’t eaten any
            animal protein in 8.5 years now, and I’ve never had any protein
            deficiency symptoms, nor have any other vegans I’ve known.

            Plus I’m not dead. On the contrary, I feel fantastic.

            So don’t worry about getting enough protein. Just eat your veggies, and you’ll be fine.

            Steve Pavlina said it best.

            http://www.stevepavlina.com/blog/2005/09/the-great-protein-myth/

          • Kim Shirk

             Great Information on protein.  Thanks for posting this.  Steve Pavlina is great.  Did you know Bill Clinton and Mike Tyson are vegan?

          • Heather Rodsterdan

             Why do people always say “gives vegans a bad name” as if we care what other names you are going to call us?  No matter what vegans say, someone who eats meat calls us the same names, usually because they actually know they are not making the best choices for themselves, and they feel angry and need to take it out on the happy, healthy vegans.  So what if it gives me a bad name, at least I am speaking the truth instead of going along with a cultural lie….

          • http://hormeticminds.blogspot.com/ Chaorder Gradient

            because when you are “given a bad name” thats when people start generalizing and making wrong assumptions about them, preventing a seamless meshing of society. Just like christians should starkly condemn the westborough baptist church in fear of the generalizations applying to all christians, vegans should condemn misinformed fully grown children that make false claims under the name of veganism.

            Alternatively if you are happy to just be shunned in society through no fault of your own, feel free to not care.

          • Debby Hurst

             mean.

          • Debby Hurst

             Why are you obsessed with the making of multiple accounts? It took me a minute to figure out what you were ranting about- you think there is only one vegan in the world who would dare stand up to you?  funny

            You are wrong on so many counts, but your nasty put downs really don’t make me care to respond with science – because for you it is all about winning and being nasty to those who stand up to you, and nothing to do with truth. 

            Every response mocks my intelligence, or ask that people condemn me or some such other nonsense, or checks my response for grammar.  And then you present “facts” that dont add up, and diregard everything i post. WHy even try to respond?  you win the internet dude, its “urs”.  But, you are an asshole.

          • http://hormeticminds.blogspot.com/ Chaorder Gradient

            Well actually i’m not so concerned about winning myself, as I am concerned with you losing.

            By the way, in case you didnt know “responding with science” is not synonymous with stealing whole walls of text from highly biased websites to your defense. In fact the bias makes it quite the opposite of science.

            You want me to point out the obvious? Debby Hurst? or Kim Shirk?(by the way clicking Debby shows that you are also kim) “Chaossmerhandz”? I even suspect you may also be Heather Rodsterdan too. all of “them” have only responded to me, in your defense, and have spoken equally nonsensically. Of course I may be being presumptuous and these could be your friends, but really you just seem like such an unlikable person that i assume that you have no friends.

          • Debby Hurst

             I would destroy you in a friend off.  You truly have no fucking idea. 

          • http://hormeticminds.blogspot.com/ Chaorder Gradient

            That you would actually use the phrase “friend off” points to both your immaturity and lack of touch with reality. How does one remain a child for as long as one such as you? Its astounding really.

          • Debby Hurst

            Growing up is severely overrated.  I remain youthful because of my diet, dumbass, instead of aging and looking like a fat wrinkle bag, or whatever you are busy doing. 

          • http://hormeticminds.blogspot.com/ Chaorder Gradient

            Youthfulness =/= childishness

            Youthfulness =/= health

            Youthfulness is about mindset, and you clearly have the mindset of an old cranky crone, no matter how healthy you feel

            You can grow up and still retain youthfulness, and you’ve impressively done neither.

          • Calypso_1

            no, you’re several standard deviations below.

          • http://hormeticminds.blogspot.com/ Chaorder Gradient

            don’t confuse her any more than she already is, she might accuse you of not having enough science

          • Calypso_1

            Enough science, rather! Can one have enough?

          • Chaossmerhandz

             no way super lame gradient. knock it off

          • http://hormeticminds.blogspot.com/ Chaorder Gradient

            Debby, this is just terribly sad. Quit now. Stop making new accounts to try and defend yourself. Not to mention calling me “mean” at every turn, because you don’t want want to, or are unable to engage in a serious conversation. The previous comment was possibly the least “mean” thing i said, and was with dire seriousness. When you claim to stand for something but really are incompetant in its defense, you serve as a strawman for your enemies, and it brings down your whole standpoint, especially for those that do not deserve it.

          • http://hormeticminds.blogspot.com/ Chaorder Gradient

            are you giving yourself props with another account? thats… thats.. sad

          • JaceD

            Gold, pure gold. Thank you Chaorder, your discussions with Debby Hurst AKA Kim Shirk have made my evening ahahaha

          • http://hormeticminds.blogspot.com/ Chaorder Gradient

            glad i could help.

          • http://hormeticminds.blogspot.com/ Chaorder Gradient

            Do you ever write things on your own? or do you just copy-paste articles to attempt to sound informed? You are not making a very strong case for being a human that can actually think. Congrats on making no new valuable points. I don’t understand how you think quoting a reworded version of what i had already said as an argument against me.

        • mannyfurious

          Yeah, certainly that would seem to be the case. I’m trying to sit here and say that humans should eat nothing more than 8 lbs of red meat every day. I’m actually just trying to say that everything in moderation seems to be an effective approach. I think it would do vegans a world of good to eat some chicken once or twice/week, just as I think it would do the rest of the nation some good to each a spinach salad with their hot pockets.

    • Debby Hurst

       Why do people who eat carcass always feel the need to tell everyone to shut up?  Please, keep eating dead shit and get diabetes or heart disease and take yourself off the planet….

      • Marie

        And you do the same with your body, as is your right. Don’t take it out on non offensive omnivores. We feel differently.

      • Anarchy Pony

        That’s cute, you think you aren’t eating things that were alive. “DURR DURR! You’re eating dead things! I am so much better than you because I eat a different kind of organism than you do, one I declare to have less value because of its difference! At the same time I will deride you for being smug!” That is fucking priceless. 

        • Monkey See Monkey Do

          I would accept it a little more if meat-eaters could eat their animals without torturing them first, you know, because animals feel pain and suffering and plants dont.
          I’m sure there is some middle-ground we could come to.

          • zombieslapper

             How do you know plants don’t have feelings? Are you a fucking psychic? You hypocritical plant murdering piece of shit.

          • Heath

            These are the crys of the carrots..

          • Monkey See Monkey Do

            I’m disgustipated.

          • Debby Hurst

             Yes, all hypocrites get psychic superpowers, dumbass.  But, then you should already know that.

          • http://www.facebook.com/rthoneunomia.celine Threedinium

            I am an unrelenting scourge on the sweetcorn nation! Many fine broccoli sons and daughters have also fallen to the merciless gnashings of my jaw. I salute their sacrifice and stoicism in the face of grim monkey death, and I honour them as their combined spirits rupture forth each morning from my long-abused vegetarian anus.

          • http://www.facebook.com/people/Padric-OFish/100001855682804 Padric O’Fish

            @ZombieSapper: It makes sense that your post supposes both that plants can feel, and that psychics exist. Both demonstrate how bad you are at science.

          • Redacted

            Torture makes the meat taste better. I like to know my meat died terrified and in unbearable pain. All life deserves such a pointless and cruel death.

          • ClubGugly

            Meat eaters can’t make a rational argument for eating meat so they turn it into a joke. If you couldn’t survive on a vegan/vegetarian diet then vast populations of the earth wouldn’t exist. As far as eating plant matter, it’s just a matter of where to draw the line. We can draw it at not eating the neighbors, we can draw it at not eating retarded people, we can draw it at animals with a face, or mammals, or plants, or fungi, or whatever. It is simply a matter of what you are comfortable with. Death is death. We kill to live. This is true. But if we are looking at the issue rationally, we need to figure out what’s adaptive or what’s maladaptive.  Factory farming has problems with sustainability, it tortures living sentient beings, and creates a food product that is unhealthy. Traditional animal farming is not profitable and can’t sustain our population. We can feed 50 people a year with the grain used to feed two cows. 

            Really more than anything at the moment, it’s a personal choice. You can be healthy and happy, or you can be unhealthy, deluded, and secretly guilty. The choice is yours to make.

          • sai

             well said

          • Redacted

            Suck cock often? I got one right here for you.

            I’ll give you some protein paste free of charge cock boy.

          • Monkey See Monkey Do

            Your playing the role perfectly.

          • Debby Hurst

             Aren’t you a charming and predictable little turd of a human? Ya?  thought vegans never heard of that one before?   You fucking carcass munching retards all say the same damn shit – har har har…  dick and steak jokes – I showed her, suck my dick! eat a steak! har har har……meanwhile…. I know that in your colon is putrefying flesh(thats what happens when you eat dead animals, they putrefied in your long colon, dummy) with a slow, constant drip to the bloodstream, you are literally poisoning yourself with all the garbage you cram in your pie hole.  So, the joke is on you as you rot from the inside out, and ejaculate feeble attempts at humor.  Have a great day spanking it while trolling the internet with your tiny little penis.  Vegans, in the end get the last laugh, cause you know, in the end we just look, think, and joust better.

          • http://hormeticminds.blogspot.com/ Chaorder Gradient

            the purpose of the digestive system is to decompose food so the flora and fauna in your gut can fluorish. anything that you eat (plants too…) is putritying as you say. Putrification just means that the tissues and proteins are being broken down. Why? for consumption, idiot. Anything that isnt usable by the human is excreted (oh.. thats what shit is for…) as fresh compost

          • Debby Hurst

             You are confusing putrefaction with digestion.  Putrefaction is only part of the digestive process of a creature that eats something it’s body is ill-equipped to handle, otherwise food is digested swiftly and has no chance to rot, or putrefy. An excess of
            meat will cause problems of accumulation of matter: clogged vessels and
            organs, putrefaction and infection. As soon as the animal is killed,
            meat starts to putrefy. This process is nowadays controlled by the use
            of freezing that allows us to eat animals killed several days, weeks,
            months or years (as recent TV programs informed us).
            Putrefaction resumes when the meat is unfrozen i.e. just before you
            start eating it. To properly digest meat takes 3 to 5 days and as much
            as two weeks in the elderly. This is compared with a proper digestion
            time of one to one and half day for non-meat eaters. Should you
            eat meat on a regular basis, your intestines are never clear and the
            meat putrefies in your digestive track. Putrefaction produces toxins and
            amines that accumulate in the liver, kidneys and large intestines,
            destroys bacterial cultures (especially those that synthesise vitamin B
            complex) and causes degeneration of the villi of the small intestine.

          • http://hormeticminds.blogspot.com/ Chaorder Gradient

            Putrefaction is just the word for when the world digests things without the help of an animal. It’s just semantics. Animals are just giant scaled up enzymes to speed up the  creation of healthy biomass

          • Debby Hurst

             Like most of your responses.  Made up.  At least you have a good imagination to make up for your lack of science!!! keep on smokin the dope!

          • http://hormeticminds.blogspot.com/ Chaorder Gradient

            Where you say “made up” i say thought through.  You know, thinking? creating new ideas? That thing you’ve never been able to do?

            “lack of science” is such a laughable  phrase especially  since what you consider “having science” (equally full of nonsense) is what you read on the internet with no first-hand experience. Science is about questioning things; for instance: i question everything you have ever believed. (also: use more exclamation marks, it makes you sound smarter(no don’t take that seriously, i forget i have to explain things for you when they are a joke))

            And nice try at pigeonholing me into your simplistic worldview, but I’m not into pot. I take you as a unique individual (albeit a rather dull one), but its clear you don’t have room in your mind to deal with people on an individual basis.

          • Debby Hurst

             If I am so dull, why are you so obsessed with responding?  You strike me as the type who is into bright and shiny objects.  Yet, you chase the dull vegan, just to make sure she loses!!  What a great mission!    Nice jab, though.  I am clearly, dull, stupid and mis-informed!!  But having a lot more fun – oooo which insult will he come up with next?  Maybe a little wacky weed would help you tap into more creative insults. bwahahahahah!! H   Happy  4th

          • http://hormeticminds.blogspot.com/ Chaorder Gradient

            Hmm seems you’ve fallen into hysterics, your mind flailing in random directions. At least your finally willing to admit your inferiority though.

          • GiraffeCrab

            People can believe and do what they want, but saying that you are better than me because of what you eat, that you look, act, think and are just better than anyone else because of a life choice is not right. What’s next vegans burning people that eat cheese on the stake? Vegans roaming the streets with shaven heads abusing people that don’t sport a pro vegan shirt? Maybe eating meat does not fall into an almost aryan vision of what the perfect and superior human is. A line is being slowly crossed where vegans feel that they must take up the soap box and preach to the world  about its wrongs. As with all groups, people just need to live and let live, if you feel you will be healthier and jazz because of your health habits then good for you and you should feel good about that but the whole argument of my opinion will beat up your opinion  is rather stupid. We all have an opinion so lets just get over it and get on with our lives. Gee wizz guys ….

          • Andrew

             > burning people that eat cheese on the stake

            You know they’d be tastier.

          • Leelu

            Everything tastes better studded with cheese.

          • Leelu

            Uh, that would be stuffed.

          • Guest

            umm. i think you should calm down for your own sake. you sound like an extremist.

          • Jen L

            Ahh yes. Ye olde forced oral sex on a woman joke as a way of shutting up someone that you disagree with. Very rational and logical. Could you go over to the vegan side with the other privileges assholes? kthnx

          • Redacted

            Meat eaters don’t give a shit what you think. Cry to someone who cares whore.

          • Debby Hurst

             If you are going to eat the neighbors, eat this chode first….  He is full of creamy protein that he wants to share with everyone…..

          • FU

            yeah, he clearly had no affect on you, psycho.

          • Jen L

            Wow. Way to show your misogyny, person who is standing up for me in every other way!

          • Jen L

            LOL I have a medical condition that literally has the sole treatment of eating meat plus other medical conditions that disallow me from eating the majority of fruits and veggies available in my country, but if I say that as the reason that having able-bodied privilege allows you to choose veganism even though I cannot, I’m making an “irrational argument.”

            Nice try, but next time, with more acknowledgement of your privilege as an able-bodied person. Or, you know, ANY acknowledgement of that or even any acknowledgement that logical arguments exist for eating meat.

          • pelirrojo

            In reality, the torture stresses the animals out and makes the meat gamey and tough. That’s why they stun the animals before dispatching them. It makes something that is barely edible and digestible slightly more edible and digestible.

        • Debby Hurst

           It’s pretty funny that you don’t know the difference between an animal and a plant.  Or a fruit, which does not die when you eat it.  But, then, who has time for logic when emotions rule?  And actually, I kinda am better than you…..  I mean if you account for looks, smarts, and digestive health.  You too can improve, but you first need to understand that there is a big difference between killing and eating an animal, and picking a fruit from a tree…..  I just don’t know what is so wrong with making choices that are better for myself, the planet and the animal concerned?  last time I checked, every animal will try to save it’s own life…. so ya, I am better than those abusive and ill-informed choices, and I have no problem discerning that you aren’t.  ha! 

          • http://hormeticminds.blogspot.com/ Chaorder Gradient

            If you accept near death experience stories of humans, the release from life for the animals could actually be a great feeling. Factory farming is one completely separate issue as they are tortured in life, but fresh meat from a kill in the wild is one of the most beautiful things life has to offer. Pain is transient.

          • Debby Hurst

             Considering this belief you hold, I invite you to experience that which you think is a potentially great feeling.  Why wait?  Go play with a hungry lion and enjoy being”fresh meat from a kill in the wild is one of the most beautiful things life has to offer”.

          • http://hormeticminds.blogspot.com/ Chaorder Gradient

            That wouldn’t be playing the game right, now would it?

          • Debby Hurst

             Oh, well, good to know life of other creatures is a game to you.  Now many things are clear.  Our values are very different, and I must realize we are discussing the world under very different terms.

          • http://hormeticminds.blogspot.com/ Chaorder Gradient

            No, i just think you have a very terrible attitude about life, and need to humble yourself, (you know, lighten up, take a joke, have some humility?)

          • Debby Hurst

            Was something you said funny?  I didn’t realize I was witness to some sort of comedy routine.  I thought we were discussing the consequences of eating dead animals.

            My bad.  Continue onward oh witty funny man.

          • http://hormeticminds.blogspot.com/ Chaorder Gradient

            Well, I think it’s pretty funny, but this joke is not for you(more like its on you).

          • Kim Shirk

            This guy is mean.  Sorry Debby, you should stop responding.  He just wants to be a jerk.  You made great points and I appreciate it.  Have a good night, and enjoy your intelligent amazing cuisine!

          • Debby Hurst

             Oh thank you, my inner voice is right. Peace, dude. ENjoy your night

          • http://hormeticminds.blogspot.com/ Chaorder Gradient

            Aww, you figured it out. I was having fun. Anyways, it looks like you messedup your schizophrenic multiple-account switching, and had to cover your ass.

            I had fun, hope you did too.

          • Heath

            You like bacon 

          • Marklar_Prime

             Animals have legs and therefore have a chance to run away. A carrot has no chance of escape whatsoever. That’s just not sporting.

        • Marklar_Prime

           Ssssshhhh, your not supposed to tell them that. Now he’ll bust into tears and hold a funeral for carrot.

      • apdoo

         Actually, the “SHUT UP” part was me aping the vegan, which, if you had actually read the original post above would have made it fairly obvious that I was being *gasp* sardonic. The diabetes and heart disease thing? That comes from eating plant matter: i.e. sugar and starch. 

        • ClubGugly

          Diabetes seems to come from over-abusing plant matter. Heart disease, however, seems to come from overuse of animal based foods. 

          • apdoo

             Hiya. Both are related to the over-intake of sugars and starches. There’s a whole body of research investigating metabolic syndrome, which includes diabetes and heart disease. The lipid hypothesis, which claims that animal fats causes heart disease, is tenuous at best. Highly recommend reading anything by Gary Taubes. Best,a.

          • qigeek

            There is ample evidence that people are able to rid themselves of serious diseases, including diabetes, using a Vegan diet, and also with the Paleo diet, and also with the Mediterranean diet. The commonality is the lack of processed foods. I think that we will find that a whole foods diet, regardless of what it contains, is the key to health. 

          • http://hormeticminds.blogspot.com/ Chaorder Gradient

            Any diet that limits starch( mostly grain) and sugar intake will reduce the chance of metabolic syndrome. Theres evidence that grain in general is a lot worse for people than we are led to believe. Correct me if i’m wrong but vegan diets arent 50% grain like a traditional american diet.

          • Heather Rodsterdan

             you are wrong.  traditional vegan diet is high in plants, many of which contain more protein in a better form than meat…..

          • http://hormeticminds.blogspot.com/ Chaorder Gradient

            what? i didn’t even say anything about protein there; i was just talking about how there’s more veggies than grains, and that’s a big part on being more healthy.

          • Calypso_1

            what would those “better forms” of protein be?

      • http://www.facebook.com/eagle.three.feather.woman Leigh Schroeder Salvage

        asking someone to not say “shut up” and then asking people to take themselves off the planet seems a bit – well, an interesting comparison.  saying “shut up” is not morally ok to you, but saying “DIE” is?  Both seem pretty rude to me.  I think a lot of people here are saying that because this writer said that anyone who thinks veganism is too expensive or a privilege “SHUT UP” – I know vegans who want to be vegan fully but dont have the money to buy food, so they depend on local food pantries.  They dont generally serve much at all that is vegan.  So they go a bit hungry or very hungry if they are die hard vegans.  Instead of saying shut up or quibbling about words, maybe vegans who think it’s NOT a privilege should consider starting vegan food pantries or serving vegan options there – raising the money for it.  We are brothers and sisters with all of humanity – lets treat each other nicely and help everyone have good healthy food to eat.  Thanks.  Thats all!

      • http://hormeticminds.blogspot.com/ Chaorder Gradient

        high sugar//processed food intake has a bigger impact on heart disease and diabetes than meat eating FYI. Don’t regurgitate(hah) dietary myths.

      • Cheftommyboy

        Everything in the universe lives off of death…how do uyou know if that carrot you pulled out of the ground by its hair isn’t screaming for its life …Vegans are the most sanctomonious turds on the planet….I don’t care if you eat vegetable matter all your life…you are entitled to that …but please shut the fuck up about everyone else who wants they want to….we’re entitled to that as well.

      • Calypso_1

        Enjoy your gastric bezoar.

      • Liz

        It was an ironic reference to the self-righteous vegan saying SHUT UP in her argument. Interesting how you speak of violence toward other humans without the same regard you say you give to animals. Look at yourself and clean up your own violence before telling others what to do.

      • Jen L

        Why do people who have the ability to choose a diet always feel the need to tell me that my doctors are wrong because they (the vegetarian/vegan) read about an experimental diet for my medical condition on the internet and despite that I already know that that diet will literally kill me, that’s what I should be eating? And then follow that up with shaming me for eating a “carcass” as though animals have them and plants don’t? Why should I be ashamed of my medical diet based on the opinion of some rando on the internet?

    • http://hormeticminds.blogspot.com/ Chaorder Gradient

      Dietary cholesterol has little impact on your body’s cholesterol levels, as a majority of the cholesterol that your body uses is produced in the body. Saturated fats from animals are neither as bad as most believe, nor as completely necessary as you are trying to say. The only thing that maybe puts meat into a necessary category is for the essential amino acids, but when you are “vegan privalidged” i guess you have the ability to afford and know about all the plants that supply complete protein.

      I eat meat, and I do so because it is delicious. Any meat-eater that does so and says differently is lying to himself.

    • Surrealias

      Sure, modern agricultural practices can be very harmful to the soil, but not done sustainably. You just have to know where your food is coming from. CSA’s are great. My father was a butcher for twenty years, I’ve seen many thousands of pig, sheep, and cows slaughtered and I used to hunt elk. I have been vegan for nine years and feel healthier than ever. I ride a bike 40+ miles a day and most people I know (i don’t know any vegans) can’t run a mile. The author of this article hit one point spot on. Eating a healthy vegan diet is not more expensive than a diet with meat. I don’t know where people get that, unless you’re fishin or eating carp or something…

  • Linsang811

    I believe veganism has some great ideas and I believe if will become very prevalent in the decades to come. However the zealotry and fervor with which vegans often press their agenda is irritating as all hell.

    • sai

      i would like to say that i was vegetarian for about 5 years and have been eating meat again for 3, although i’m considering going back.  during those 5 years, i’ve heard countless meat eaters complain about how vegans/vegetarians are preachy and that sort of thing.  but i would say, from my own experience, i got soooo much shit from meat eaters, and i don’t once recall ever telling someone how they should eat.  as soon as they find out you’re vegetarian, it’s an instant debate, always started by them.  invariably it would include the dissertation that vegetarians are self righteous and preachy, which is frustrating beyond belief seeing as they were the ones that started the argument by criticizing MY dietary choices!  i see the same happening now.  a vegetarian is responding to a critical essay by an omnivore, and somehow the vegetarian is the preachy one. 

      i’m sure the case isn’t always like mine, but it seems that i’ve seen many others just say that they’re vegan/veg and then have a bunch of omnivores jump at them right off the bat.  i’m not trying to argue here, but just express frustration that i’ve dealt with first hand and i see happening right now
      peace

      • Monkey See Monkey Do

        It must hit a nerve in them.

      • Linsang811

         I don’t believe in harassing people about whether they eat meat or veggies. I am objective and neutral although like I said, I do think, as a matter of sustainability, we should move towards a more vegetarian lifestyle as a society or at least stop eatin so much cow. It’s verifiably ruining the planet.

        That aside, this article was extremely self-righteous, self-important, and condescending. If you want to win people over, you don’t do it by being an obnoxious git like the tool who wrote this article.

  • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=516931093 Marie Alessandro

    the photo is nasty.

    • Manhattan Project Playboy

      But it is her privilege to look nasty because her tattooed and pierced body is a radical statement of protest against the tyrannies of the white, carnivorous, patriarchal culture.

      And yet, she is also compelled to compensate for lost body fat with 10 pounds of silicone stitched into her chest so she can achieve the mainstream culture’s definition of what constitutes a sexy female body. 
      HA!

      • Andrew

        How do you know what her chest looks like?  It isn’t in the photo.

        • zombieslapper

          Probably because he clicked on the photo, fucktard, where her tits are on full display.

          • Redacted

            Why are you looking at underage tits? She’s 16 you pervert.

          • Andrew

            I’m a “fucktard” for not clicking on the photo?

            I hear anger management courses make many people’s lives easier and more enjoyable.

      • http://www.facebook.com/rthoneunomia.celine Threedinium

        Yeah I got a good old-fashioned ‘inadequacy’ reflex to that picture I have to admit.

    • http://www.facebook.com/eagle.three.feather.woman Leigh Schroeder Salvage

      what photo?  

  • Griz

     So many grammatical errors I don’t know where to begin.  Her thought process went everywhere, like blood in a slaughter house. You can tell this was written by a freshmen Gen. Studies major.

    • ClubGugly

      Resorting to calling out errors in grammar is the domain of those with nothing to say. Your condescending remarks about freshman Gen Studies majors, and your nonsense about her thought process also tell us absolutely nothing. Three sentences of little substance beyond hot air.

      • Redacted

        Fag.

        • JaceD

          Do you mind if I bum one off you mate?

        • seriously

          wow, you are really the biggest douchbag I have ever seen. but you obviously pride yourself on that, so that isn’t going to bother you. i imagine you sitting in a darkened room with the internet feeling quite superior as you berate anyone with a conscience. you are probably masturbating, too.

          • http://hormeticminds.blogspot.com/ Chaorder Gradient

            Trolled.

  • http://twitter.com/jasonpaulhayes jasonpaulhayes

    “It’s easy to tell someone how they should eat, when you’re not the one that’s hungry” Penn Jillette

    • Debby Hurst

       yes, and starvation is a very different thing.  I doubt anyone on here is starving, and a vegan diet is much cheaper than eating steak. 

      • JaceD

        I believe a main ingredient in the standard Vegan meal are assorted nuts, right? Please explain to all of us who have serious nut allergies how veganism is even remotely possible?

        • Debby Hurst

           All vegans eat are nuts?   most vegans dont eat a ton of nuts.  But i think you are just here to mock it and put veganism down.

          • JaceD

            I didn’t say vegans only eat nuts, but vegan friends of mine use nuts in nearly everything they cook. Nuts have a high level of protein, so an obvious replacement for meat. I’m just asking what you would recommend as a replacement for meat and nuts?

          • Monkey See Monkey Do

            Beans, Wholegrains, Tofu, Soy, Asparagus,Cauliflower,Broccoli and Brussels Sprouts, Artichoke, Watercress, Sweetcorn
            Many others but these are the top ranked for protein. Hope that helps.
            http://www.hsph.harvard.edu/nutritionsource/what-should-you-eat/protein/

            There’s always lots of emotion involved in these type of debates so it helps to stick to the science and peer-reviewed journals about nutrition. Peace.

          • http://hormeticminds.blogspot.com/ Chaorder Gradient

            Since you seem to be relatively informed, what’s your take on essentialaAmino acids? Does it require genuine decision making or have you found good variety to be sufficient?

          • Monkey See Monkey Do

            Good variety is sufficient. I guess for alot of people eating a small variety of vegetables is a bit harder than eating an animal every now and then, and you made that point well. On the flipside there are many more medical problems that arise from eating meat vs. not eating meat. So its defintley safer to just eat a variety of vegetables. Some vegetables have a complete EMA source (soy). But yeh, good variety is good for health and good for the tastebuds. If my plate is full of many different colors then its natures beautitful way of saying its a healthy meal.

          • JaceD

            Interesting read, cheers for the link friend!

  • Destroysound

    “Saying that you personally cannot be Vegan because it is too privileged is ridiculous. That is like pointing out that I am privileged because I live in a developed country or that I am white or that I am Vegan.”

    ..but you are.

  • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100000480492140 Tony Traverso

    I’m just here because of the picture

  • Jimbo142345

    if you live on the road then it becomes ridiculously hard to maintain veganism especially vegetarianism

    • ClubGugly

      No it doesn’t. It’s just a lazy fucking excuse to backslide like any other.

    • sai

       not to be contrary, but i’ve done it many times, hitchhiking around the usa for months at a time.  never really had an issue with it, except when people give you food it can be kind of weird. 

  • http://twitter.com/JointSPC Joint Specialist

    So typical of a self-important vegan  to capitalize the words “vegan” and “veganism”

  • Redacted

    Wow. This is why 16 year old girls should not be allowed on the Internet.

    • Debby Hurst

       because of your dick jokes?  or because you cry like one when you are not winning?

  • Shari

    Everyone is just trying to figure out what is best for themselves and deciding what to eat is a personal choice. Being a vegan doesn’t make anyone a better or worse person than anyone else, no different than being an omnivore or another way of eating. 

    The vegan privilege points had some interesting points but didn’t change any of my views on veganism. The author’s article also wasn’t representative of all vegans, just one person’s opinion on the subject. I understand the passion behind believing in something and wanting to share it with the world and defending a belief against people who are critical, which is what seems like this article was about. 

    Unfortunately, the author seems too angry and defensive for me to relate to. It probably won’t be effective in educating others about veganism, either. Even though there is truth in some of her points, most people would be more open minded to hearing about different opinions if they didn’t feel like they have to defend who they are in the process.

  • peter ballard

    It’s all about a balanced, organic, & omnivorous diet.

    Arguing about who’s more privileged,
    is life not privilege enough?
    To live and to breathe day in and day out,
    being the best a person can be,
    it is a privilege to be alive in this moment.

    Two neighbors cage themselves in behind their privacy fences,
    fighting over who has the better grass.
    Neither of these fighting neighbors own the grass,
    they simply hold onto their turf while they live.
    And after death, then what?
    That fence will either rot away, be repainted and/or stained,
    torn down, or replaced by the next inhabitant.

    Telling someone to “Shut up”,
    is obviously a defense mechanism,
    they have no will to fight,
    nor can come to an understanding of the truth,
    they are misled to believe that they’ve won.
    When in fact, they’ve dun lost the game.

    “Nothing else matters”

    A Trip Through The Human Digestive System (abridged)The “rotting meat” debunked.

  • Shoodooby

    BOO did not use “textual” in this article about sociological shit nobody cares about. points off for style. basically, making this post is a form of privilege becuase of your level of education. so cork it and eat your rice and beans. Also, you liked the idea of automatic privilege until it applied to you, so put that in your pipe and smoke it, hypocrite.

  • Violet

    Even though I’m a vegan, Emily’s article was painful. It ended up being a poor, uninformed study on the horrors of acknowledging any privilege at all. The entire piece was demeaning, written from the point of a spoiled white woman who has never dealt with poverty or the real world. Walk into a typical inner-city neighbourhood grocery store (Whole Foods doesn’t count), and tell me it’s the “cheapest” option when you have to provide a week’s worth of filling meals on minimum wage.

    The poor logic, poor grammar, and CAPS LOCK BOLD didn’t help either.

    • discusthrower

       beans, lentils, rice, and stuff like that…  developing countries have better teeth I have heard…

    • http://www.facebook.com/rthoneunomia.celine Threedinium

      Real men eat 10p noodles from tesco. You can live for a week for under £1. Anyone on benefits will tell you the same.

  • Drake Smith

    It looks like she has an angry vagina. Maybe she should eat some meat.

    • ClubGugly

      What does that even mean?

      • Andrew

        He wants to clog her colon with his putrefying flesh.

        • http://hormeticminds.blogspot.com/ Chaorder Gradient

          I see what you did there.

  • discusthrower

    I’d like to be vegan as well, and I think it is a wonderful privilege.

    I struggle with learning recipes and stuff coming from the American culture…  animals are people, my friend.  It’s like a hollacaust or something…. but I still eat meat.  I may be a carnivorous form of human, but I try to learn the veggies.

    People are so terrible and out of control.  To think that people used to think that animals are any different than themselves.  Having learned to see things my own way I see how much in common we have.

    But it will take time for me to learn how to live eating only vegetables.  I do remember reading that vegetarians brains shrink… but I don’t think that really makes any difference unless you are going for biggest everything  ;;o

    • mannyfurious

      “People are so terrible and out of control.  To think that people used to think that animals are any different than themselves.”
      Here’s the thing: If I find myself in the middle of nowhere confronted by a mountain lion or a pack of coyotes or even a fox, those motherfuckers are going to eat me. So, you’re right, we aren’t any different. They eat animals and so do humans. It’s called the food chain. It’s natural. It’s par for the Universal course.

      Again, I don’t really care one way or the other. If people are PRIVILEGED enough to have a choice what they want to eat, they should choose whatever seems right for them. However, personally, to me, it seems as if turning away from meat is turning away from life itself. To denounce eating animals is to denounce the entire cosmos, the entire structure of the universe. 

  • http://www.facebook.com/tsiddle Tessa Siddle

    As a former vegetarian who was borderline vegan, I discovered that I physically have to eat meat at least twice a month or I’ll black-out at random intervals. While I agree that an all veg diet is best for the ecosystem many human bodies can’t function without small quantities of animal protein. I think both sides need to step off their self righteousness and acknowledge that both access to easily accessible animal protein and the ability (and wealth) to avoid animal products are privileged positions.     

    • http://twitter.com/JointSPC Joint Specialist

      Bravo, Tessa! great reply

    • ClubGugly

      Bullshit. 

      • Redacted

        RAGE

    • Monkey See Monkey Do

      You black out at random-intervals cause you dont eat animals?
      Thanks for the laugh.

      • Calypso_1

        Anemia will do that.  Some people do need animal protein sources, their enzymatic phenotype cannot derive full nutritional requirements from plant sources. 

        • http://hormeticminds.blogspot.com/ Chaorder Gradient

          Psh… you and your facts! We don’t need facts here, we need more blind hatred and rage.

        • Monkey See Monkey Do

          Usually your better researched than this Calypso. Vegan and Vegetarian diets do not cause iron deficiency , this is a myth that is perpetuated by the beef industry. Speak to any nutritionist.

          ‘Vitamin B12, not protein, is the missing nutrient in a vegan diet.
          In modern times, the plant foods we eat are well washed and contain little bacteria, bugs, or dirt, which would have supplied B12 in a more natural environment such as the jungle or forest. To assure optimal levels of B12 in our diet, we require some form of B12 supplementation when eating a diet with little or no animal products.’

          • Calypso_1

            I think you need to look at what I said again.  Anemia – among includes, among many things, B12 deficiency & the need for specific protein sources does not imply iron deficiency.  I’m talking about the ability to break down and absorb amino acids.  But you might be feeling adventurous so here is some research.  (It’s about genetic variations of enzyme expression ; )  http://www.ebi.ac.uk/s4/jump?from=aHR0cDovL3d3dy5lYmkuYWMudWsvczQvc3VtbWFyeS9tb2xlY3VsYXI/dGVybT1UTVBSU1M3JmNsYXNzaWZpY2F0aW9uPTk2MDYmdGlkPW5hbWVPcmdFTlNNVVNHMDAwMDAwMzMxNzc%3D&hash=42FCE&url=http://www.ensembl.org/Homo_sapiens/Gene/Variation_Gene/Image?g%3DENSG00000176040%3Bdb%3Dcore

          • Monkey See Monkey Do

            Well we are on the same page with B-12. Vegetarians are fine and vegans just need to eat fortified foods or a supplement. As far as protein goes, you can get complete protein from plants and in much healthier form.

          • Calypso_1

            You can get complete protein but that protein may pass through the portion of your system capable of fully absorbing it because it takes longer to release these proteins from plant materials.  Some people simply do not have the genetic makeup to easily extract plant protein sources.  Primates primarily get readily available protein from eating insects/larvae off of the plants/fruits they are eating. There are NO exclusively vegetarian primates (other than self-imposed humans) http://www.beyondveg.com/billings-t/comp-anat/comp-anat-1a.shtml

            I’m not saying that veggies aren’t fantastic & healthy – they should be a major part of any diet, but not everyone can maintain optimum health without animal protein sources.

          • Monkey See Monkey Do

            It’s an extreme minority with that genetic defect, you should mention that aswell. Having citrus foods with your vegetables will also help absorbtion problems for the vast majority also.

            Nice to know that primates eat insects for protein, its not really relevant, but thanks for the info.

          • Calypso_1

            The extreme defects are those that cannot produce any enzymes. Many types of genetic defects have a broad range of milder expressions – to the point that they are not even defects but phenotypes. Many of these defects are in regulatory mechanisms which affect gene expression (where the ‘gene’ itself is not defective) subject to many factors that are far more complex then is understood at this point.
            As to what other primates eat and evolved eating it is very relevant as it indicates the nature of our own organism’s biochemical/nutritional evolution.

            I respect your ability and desire to maintain a healthy lifestyle and I in no way discourage an individual who is perfectly healthy on a vegetarian diet to eat otherwise. In fact I would encourage anyone interested in trying vegetarianism to do so within reason – that of pursuing optimum health, not ideology. However, one cannot declare that all individuals are best served by completely abstaining from animal proteins, because this is simply not true.

          • Monkey See Monkey Do

            There’s not enough research on the topic, it’s a grey area really, try not to present it as a fact. I’ve been finding it really hard to get any information on this actually (only things irrelevant to veganism). can you post a relevant link if you have the time?

            Fruit and insects were all we ate back then, that changed pretty dramatically. We’re an adaptable lot.

            You speak as if veganism should be ONLY be about personal health for it to be reasonable. I’ve always found an important part of reasoning to be ethics and morals. These creatures we eat obviously suffer horrible lives, they can feel more complex emotions we give them credit for, such as fear and despair. They can suffer intense anxiety and often go through horrendous pain. There’s just no reasonable excuse for putting them through that.

            A quick, painless kill after a life worth living could be seen as more reasonable if a higher being wishes to indulge in the flesh of a lower being. It’s not necessary though and you haven’t provided any evidence that it is necessary for some people.

    • Calypso_1

      You speak the truth.  Many people are that way.  Human’s are omnivores.  However, as far as animal proteins, we are primarily designed to eat insects and larvae. : )

  • Roland Hulme

    As a vegan, I’d just like to say how OFFENSIVE this post is. This is the sort of ridiculous self-importance that robs our dietary choices of all credibility. 

    • http://www.facebook.com/eagle.three.feather.woman Leigh Schroeder Salvage

      thanks.  glad to see another vegan who was offended by this.  another meaning you.  not me.  i’m one who admires vegans but i admire vegans like YOU much more.  its hard to be opinionated and passionate and express one’s self respectfully i guess – but really?  is it THAT hard?  are we such a polarized society that everything is US and THEM?  Were we all trained SO well int eh competitive war like model?  I think so, sadly…

      • http://hormeticminds.blogspot.com/ Chaorder Gradient

        I like you; you actually have a level head on your shoulders. That’s rare in these parts.

  • waxwing

    I think her response was well thought-out, and made a lot of sense.  There are structures in place, both social and economic, that have brainwashed us to think eating no meat is “sissy” and eating tons of meat and crap is somehow better for us.  There’s a lot of money invested in “exploiting” animals.  I think it’s important to take into account how a lot of these economic and social pressures relate to the quality of EVERYONE’S food in this country and throughout the world.  <3  She got a little angry at the end, but I think she just felt very passionately about it.  Can't blame her too much.

  • Lifobryan

    ok … an admittedly stupid question masquerading as a bad joke:

    Is someone vegan because they love animals or because they hate vegetables?

    Just tryin’ to lighten the mood …..

    • http://hormeticminds.blogspot.com/ Chaorder Gradient

      *slaps knee*

  • zombieslapper

    Remember all those vegan Native Americans we read about in history class?

  • zwagbog

    Slavoj Zizek on Vegetarians
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Maex3jW0Yw8

    • Monkey See Monkey Do

      I’ve always enjoyed Zizek’s tongue in cheek approach. Beats the usual meat-eater response of yelling fuck you! vegatables have feelings too!

  • Dyslexis

    Well, since our teeth are not all molars, we are not meant to eat just vegetables. Also, eating meat is what eventually led us to evolve our frontal lobe and become more intelligent.-
    http://amog.com/lifestyle/101230-eating-meat-intelligence/

    And it is very hard to be a vegan on a minimum wage salary, or just eat healthy at all. So, yeah, being a vegan is a privilege.

    • ClubGugly

      Rice and beans = dirt cheap. Eating frozen morningstar farms veggie burgers = expensive, and unhealthy. I’m not sure you can say that human beings were “meant” to do anything and then talk about Darwinian evolution in the same sentence. Human beings “can” eat meat. We can eat each other as well. I could shit in the floor and roll around in it. I “choose” not to.

    • http://hormeticminds.blogspot.com/ Chaorder Gradient

      I think the link between the frontal lobe and meat-eating is a little iffy. There’s also the “stoned ape” and the “Left in the Dark” theory that claim the exact opposite of this. But who knows?

  • http://www.facebook.com/eagle.three.feather.woman Leigh Schroeder Salvage

    Any non vegan eats anything and everything in our path that we FEEL like eating with NO respect to health or the environment? This includes all vegetarians? We all care nothing for health or the world. Oh yea, I forgot, thanks for reminding me, Ms. Thing, only vegans are healthy environmentalists. The rest of us just suck.
    This writer’s parallels to racism suck too. People using the term “white privilege” do NOT tell her she can’t say “I am Trayvon MArtin” HELLO! A person perhaps with NO experience dealing with anti racist activism perhaps? Or in a VERY different place than – say – well, the USA across most of history and in most places? OK some people saying white privilege might say that – but I haven’t met any of them! I use that term all the time, I’m white, I marched in the hoodie parade and felt more comraderie there than anywhere in a LOOONG time. Freedom riders didn’t say “OMG you used the term “white privilege – I now feel SOOO disconnected to you – get off my bus, you white ass whore!” No, they rode TOGETHER – in UNITY – she says this term means people cant be unified? What planet does she live on? Um, in a system that’s unfair, people in all places in the system CAN unite and TALK about the system and FIGHT the system together, unified, together. Yes. Speaking TRUTH to privilege might make some people feel alienated – I’m SURE of that. If that makes HER feel alienated – speak to THAT truth “I feel alienated by this concept.” Seems she needs to do some of her own digging on this. Dont pretend ANYONE is telling white people they cant’ fight the good fight. She is off her rocker on that one!  And if somene told her that, WHO?  NOT a very effective activist…The parallels to vegan priviliege are so different – she doesn’t make good points except when she points out the differences…She made SOME good points but man. Her anger and vitriol and sense of “im the best and you all suck” is really horrible – the opinion to be vegan in and of itself will alienate some people jsut the way the white privilege term will alienate some We people. can’t control reactions.BIGGEST POINTS I WANT TO MAKE1. Vegans and meat eaters in the US who choose either or lifestyle are BOTH privileged. We get to choose WHAT we eat and we also get to CHOOSE to eat. How many kids died TODAY because of starvation? Oh, what was that? 17,000? This is the true non privilege.2. Her assertion that “Saying that you personally cannot be Vegan because it is too privileged is ridiculous.” – is ridiculous. Ok, lemme role play. “Hi, my name is Stewart. I used to be vegan but I lost my job and food stamps has not approved me. I eat only at the local shelter. They serve almost no vegan food so I was really hungry for a few weeks and lost some weight and wasn’t feeling great. Then I realized I had to eat. I still do not eat any meat but I’m sure some of the soups they told me were vegetarian likely had chicken or beef stock – I ate it anyway – I eat breads with dairy in it now – even though I’m sort of allergic” – What would she say to Stewart? Oh, she already said it: “Saying that a Vegan is privileged because its costs a considerable amount of money to be Vegan. All I have to say to that is SHUT UP”

    Stewart:  “shut up?  ok.  wow.  thanks, fellow vegan lady with no experience with hunger and poverty in the US… yea, thanks… wanna start a vegan food pantry?  yes?  ok thanks!  do it!  now!”

  • Heath

    I was a vegetarian for 20 years. Now we raise our own chickens to slaughter, and layers. Which for me happens this week for the past 5 years. We grow vegetables as well which gets canned or blanched and frozen. I feel privileged personally, far beyond your typical consumer vegan, who actually thinks what they are eating is better for them, just like me.  Once I didn’t bleed a chicken out all the way and than I dunked it into a 150 degree water to loosen the quills, well it wasn’t dead. I would never have had that precious memory if I was cramming gmo soy in my mouth..

    • http://www.ContraControl.com/ Zenc

      After you slaughter, what methods do you use to preserve?

      Primarily freezing?

      • Heath

        Yea, once they are processed, they are put in an ice bath, cleaned once more than vacuum sealed and frozen..

  • I’m a raw vegan.. But

    Jesus Christ does ANYONE here realize that just because someone is “vegan” doesn’t mean they are getting the nutrients they need?? I know a SHITLOAD of meat eaters, veggies, and vegans who just do it because it’s trendy and they still eat processed crap and don’t get the minerals nutrients and amount of food they need to thrive. These labels are used to lump all sorts of diets under one convenien term when really its much more complex than that

    • http://hormeticminds.blogspot.com/ Chaorder Gradient

      All other comments to this article should be discarded and replaced with yours.

  • Brother

    Well I have IBS, so I can’t eat too much insoluble fiber, nor too much red meat. so suck it vegans I can’t be fully vegan, nor a full carnivore but what I really can not touch on an empty stomach is wheat.

  • Biggelsworth

    The very First line gives it away.
    “It is a privilege to have access to information about alternative diets”
    Privilege ?
    A privilege from Whom TO Whom?, The ruling class to the serfs?
    Be gone, with your BS talk.

    Article Discarded.

    NEXT !

  • http://twitter.com/SundaeRye Sundae Rye

    This is the first time I’ve came across a post putting the words privilege and vegan together.  Being vegan in an independent decision.  Whether you sleep in a shitty apartment or in a castle it can be stripped down to one’s choice. 

  • Bruteloop

    why am I not surprised at the squabbling and name calling here. One was or another each one of us is taking up too much space. Self righteousness doesn’t change a thing. 

  • flytop

    Amen, kaustisk. I’m sick of the privilege talk too, action is more important than lengthy debates.

  • valvaliant

    “SHUT UP” -meateater

  • Chris

    Yes, damn all of those “privileged” Indians, Asians, etc all over the world who eat a vegan/vegetarian diet! I think it’s safe to say that meat is a luxury in most of the world. Eating a veggie diet is definitely the norm. If the author says “vegan food is expensive” I guess they are talking about all that expensive pre-packaged BS they sell at Whole foods, etc. That is a marketing scam and a way to create a class or rich people who can feel superior, that has nothing to do with choosing not to eat meat. 

  • The only thing to get is money

    Holy shit! 155 comments on vegetarianism of all topics!!!!!

  • Farojak

    What a bunch of dumbf^*ks all you religionists and meat eaters…I am NOT vegan but being able to eat healthy isn’t a priviledge nor is it a choice….It’s just plain common sense and an inalieable right…Maybe if all you fatasses realized that you would be healthier…and maybe even smarter…All you bible thumpers have only proven what a farce your religion is and how useless your god has become…
    My thought is…”he died for all these idiots…??…”…makes me wonder who the fool really is…
    Eat your vegetables and maybe you’ll grow a brain…your Big Mac has turned you into a bunch of weiners….!!

  • http://www.ContraControl.com/ Zenc

    I’m telling myself that I keep returning to this article to see all the insightful new comments that are posted and not just because of the picture of “Jezabel” (and yes, you do get to see her tits if you click on the picture).

     

  • Debby Hurst
  • Blackdog123321

     Once upon a time i could shoot a rabbit, clean it so quickly that its little heart
    would still be beating in the palm of my hand. I ate meat daily, drunk
    milk by the gallon, bread by the loaf. I would help slaughter animals on our farm for us to eat…..

    After watching and working with animals all the time i started to sense that there was
    more to these creatures. I could sense that they felt fear, affection and
    had intelligence. I continued to eat animal products, but not with the
    vigor of old. As i grew i had the usual health problems that many get, nothing too serious, just annoying.

    About 10 months ago after a lifetime of research i decided i would go raw vegan. I lasted 6 weeks. My only regret i was not strong enough to stick with it. Many of you dont know how adictive our modern diet is…..just try and eat raw foods, yes the ways that they can be prepared is incredible and leaves modern cooked and proccesed “shit” for dead…. My health improved dramatically, emotional well being and energy was thru the roof.

    My weakness for proccessed foods is my achilles…. The world we westerners live in gives us so many choices…Like the choice to eat animal products and never get to be really involved. Never see the life fade in the eyes of a dying animal as it’s strengh fades while you hold it or watch the blood stain the ground from a bullet wound, or see its fear. Smell the blood or hear the cry’s of animals in distress. I have. I cant do it anymore. Many of you may think differently if you had to. Thousands of animals have perished at my hands…….not proud, again each moment is a choice.

     I still strive daily for the raw vegan lifestyle again. I still eat a lot of raw food.

    It dismays me that there is so much vitrol and anger directed at each camp. You “meatys” give being a vegan go for a while maybe. You could get to know some animals. And you “vegies” give a little space to them. Show them through your actions and your health that maybe there is an alternative…..

    Maybe the problem is just how food is prepared, we are the only critters on the planet that cook (burn) most of our food and add all sorts of poisons…..

    Direct your anger if you must at the powers that be that have created most of our problems. Not each other.. Cheers

  • justagirl

    vegans are yummy.

  • Trevor

    In the academic sense, Privilege with a capital P is used for scenarios we are born into or have no control over. Veganism, being a dietary choice (bar dietary restrictions from allergies) thus is not a Privilege in the sense you mean it. You are talking about a lifestyle choice that is a privilege (little p) under the umbrella of Economic Privilege

  • Abbyprock5

    A vegan meal can be made in the amount of time one would wait in a fast food line, and it is cheaper, and is available everywhere.

  • Sigh

    Did you really just say Tofu is expensive. Being Vegan is not inherently expensive. You’re not very smart if you think it is. Eating meat is the fuck privilege. 

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/Padric-OFish/100001855682804 Padric O’Fish

    That was a weakass rebuttal to the meat feminazi.

  • John Klepac

    http://everything2.com/title/omnivore+privilege

    Really, vegans being the privileged ones here shouldn’t even be on the table.

  • Sarah Warren

    Depending on where you live and what shops are available to you, not to mention if you have food intolerances, vegan ism can be bloody expensive. Saying “no it’s not, it’s cheap” doesn’t magically give people equal access to the resources.

  • Rus Archer

    frozen vegetables = hella cheap
    vegan/vegetarian only gets really expensive if you don’t actually eat vegetables
    and try to have substitutes for meat

    • Monkey See Monkey Do

      Exactly. Meat is actually really fucking expensive unless you go for “mince” or sausages but you never know whats in those aberrations. Proper vegetarianism/ veganism ie: the actual eating of fruit and vegetables is hella fucking cheap in modern society.

      • Monkey See Monkey Do

        The excessive production costs, labour and environmental damage from producing 1 steak is also a fucking joke when compared to other foods.

  • Jen L

    As a non-able-bodied person who has absolutely no choice in diet and is required to eat meat for health reasons, yes, having a choice to be vegan is a privilege and making up straw men like “saying white privilege implies that I can’t empathize with a black person” does nothing to address that. As the first author points out, the ability to choose a diet is able-bodied privilege and in many cases class privilege as well. Sticking your fingers in your ears and going lalala doesn’t change that.

  • Brian Arkle Webber

    “Depending on where you live, you may or may not have access to a wide
    range of vegan foods. Being able to go to the grocery stores requires
    transportation to/from; the closest store may not be vegan-friendly and
    you may have to drive for many miles to find a store where you can get
    all your shopping done. This is further complicated if you rely on
    public transportation or rides from others, in that you are only able to
    go to the specific stores on their routes, which may or may not have a
    range of vegan foods.”

    This was really the only part of the article I could agree with 100%, so I’ll just focus on it. This is SO true, and is something I think a lot of white vegans (such as myself) all too often fail to recognize, and in doing so make ourselves look like assholes to people of color, who really need to go vegan more than white people do, if for no other reason than much of the pollution caused by factory farming negatively affects communities of color. But I can’t really blame people of color for not wanting to go vegan if they see a bunch of white people acting like superior snobs about it. Nobody wants to do things that snobs like.

  • Shane Von Russell

    ugh.

  • Arnt Johnsen

    “(which is amount 19737 liters of water and 16 pounds of grain to one pound of beef)”… hm, stupid way to count how much water the animal needs or not. Show that instead of how much water supply only USA pollute every day and we talk about big numbers. Vegan or not that is the question though but it will end in that way, considering the true fact that with all resistant bacteria that are growing in livestock’s (animal breeding) thanks to a stupid IDIOTIC convinced believe to fill animal feed with Antibiotic since the 50′s. By that way we are putting away a food supply for a near future. Considered the fact also regarding the GMO stuff that American companies try to force upon countries in the world and if they get lucky it will destroy the fauna of the nature it self. Man kind are stupid, perhaps stupid enough to erase them self of this earth…

  • Johann Heyss

    Lots of ignorance about veganism here. Soon everybody will have to go vegan like it or not, because eating meat is just not sustainable in urban modern societies. I won’t even talk about speciesism, because obviously many people are selfish enough to believe humans are more important than other species. And many are also ignorant enough to deny that, since humans are omnivorous, we can eat meat, but we don’t need to. Yes, unfortunately many people still think that killing an animal who feels pain and fear is ok for the sake of “culture” and taste. But let us not forget that about a century ago enslaving black people was the rule, and everybody (or almost everybody) thought it was normal to gather and watch the daily’s negro execution. You guys should WAKE UP.

  • http://nwonotepad.com/ patlalrique

    Of course Veganism is a privilege! The other side of the coin is fast-food and obesity for the poors who can afford else or don’t know better.

  • Ted Heistman

    This goes Back a long ways to the Upper Caste Hindus, who wanted to diffeentiate themselves from the Untouchables.

  • ConservativeSniper

    Your assertion that humans are omnivorous is false. Humans, as per our digestive systems and our teeth, are biologically intended to be herbivorous.

    I eat meat myself, because I enjoy it. I also enjoy many vegetarian dishes (two of our teens are vegs who cook compassionate meals at home). But despite my eating meat I do not claim that it’s because we’re omnivores. Our digestive tracts are the longer length as you’d see in herbivorous animals, not short like in carnivores and [slightly less short] in omnis. This is because meat ROTS quickly and our bodies aren’t meant to contain rotting flesh in our tracts.

    Our teeth are flat, not at all pointed. Even our “incisors” do not incise! We call them canine teeth (dogs are true omnivores for anyone who cares). But Google “cow teeth” + “canine” and you will see that cows, horses, deer, ELEPHANTS, and so on all have the same stubby, non-pointy canine that we do. It’s because all of those animals are herbivores, just like WE are.

    Humans do many things other animals do not. Every time we do something bad (eat sugar, lay down all day, drink booze), we separate ourselves from other animals. Buttsecks, oral, masturbating, etc., are fun(!) but not what nature intended. Yet we happily do them. So do I, so don’t think I’m hating.

    • Andrew

      Other animals masturbate.

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