Can a Sufficient Dose of Psilocybin Mushrooms Cure Someone of Atheism?

In this edition of heroic doses we ask the burning philosophical question, can a sufficient dose of psilocybin mushrooms cure someone of atheism? Not a topic I’d considered personally at length until it happened to a friend of mine. Well, let’s face it, I’ve always thought something like this was possible. One thing that annoys me about a lot of hard science wired people’s attitude toward matters such as alien contact and inner godhead freak outs is that I see a lot of, well, if something’s in your head, we can’t quantify data on it, so it’s pointless. Horseshit. Behavior is a physical thing and it’s incredibly easy to study.

Take me for example. As a teenager, after ditching Christianity I can’t say I had much of an interest in spirituality at all. I was more into guitars, basketball, not getting laid, and other typical young guy crap. I will say that smoking weed maybe got me thinking about matters of the soul a bit more intently, but not seriously. What I can definitively say is that after taking mushrooms once when I was 18, this all changed. Of course, it wasn’t only the one time I took them by any means, but one time was all it took. All of a sudden I started reading countless books about alien phenomenon, sixties counter culture, remote viewing, shamanism, etc. I started dabbling in astral projection. Never would have bothered without the insectile ‘shroom hive mind forcing the issue. It should be noted that there was something else that went all weird after my first psychedelic encounter that I still have a hard time wrapping my head around in retrospect. For a week or so after the trip, I had this odd feeling of bi-location that I’ve never felt since in a waking state. I was going through my daily life as a college student, but I was also simultaneously hovering above my head and looking down on myself from a third person perspective. None of this felt odd or out of place either, which made the whole charade that much more peculiar.

So whereas ridiculous claims like these can’t be substantiated by anyone other than me, the fact that I basically turned into another person can be. You could check my library records, my purchase histories. I went from having zero interest in alternative spirituality to that being my primary focus in life, instantaneously. If you would have asked me why at the time, I would have told you straight up. The same sort of thing happens with supposed UFO contactees. Behavior goes from one thing to another. It can be verified by multiple witnesses. Whether you believe in the reality of unknown forces lurking behind the scenes and shaping the world you live in, you should probably get used to it. They’re called thoughts and you can’t see any of them, but they’re sure as hell shaping everything. Welcome to the wacky world of the Occult.

Last week I relayed an anectdote about playing in a band with three other atheists, which was a particularly odd when the band is writing songs about crap like astral projection and Dick Cheney being sodomized in the afterlife (seriously). Most fascinatingly, my next band (I have no idea why I can’t keep a band together for more than 4 years) had the exact inverse make up as far as spiritual beliefs. Three guys completely on board with fringe metaphysics and one proudly hard nosed atheist, or scientific reductionist as he’d sometimes refer to it. This is with me, another guy who had maybe taken maybe a bit too much blotter in his heyday and openly talked about the presence of insectile men in black pushing micro dot sheets behind the scenes in his hometown of L.A. My brother was also in the project, and although he’s not nearly as hardcore as me, his comment on Graham Hancock’s Supernatural was something to the effect of: “The problem with reading that book, is that you know whatever you read next isn’t going to be nearly as cool. It’s a bit of a let down”

Perfect environment for a psychoactive super freak like me, with the exception of the lone atheist dissent. I must say though, it was rather satisfying for this perspective to always get quickly beaten down in a conversational setting for once. I was used to being told I was nutter, now it was the exact opposite perspective getting mocked. Good times. What wasn’t good times was the fact that the guy didn’t understand the whole I-am-the-inhuman-king-of-drugs vibe I was trying to conjure forth. As a matter of fact, on one occasion he randomly decided to re-write the press materials for our one album for me. What’s weird about this, is that he wouldn’t come clean as to why he was doing it. He’d make up excuses about the grammar or whatever, and after a while I had to call him out and be like, dude, I know, you’re an “atheist” you’re not cool with what I’m doing here, but it’s my fucking band so I don’t give a shit. If you’re not comfortable with it, quit.

This actually kept coming up from time to time even though I thought it was settled. So, after three and a half years of this passive aggressively vaguely confrontational crap, a supremely unexpected turn of events went down. Namely, and I have no idea why he did this, but he decided he was going to intentionally take an incredibly massive dose of mushrooms. He’d been unemployed for a spell, so one weekend he used his excess of free time to go to Arizona and trip the fuck out with a college friend. It was his entire intent to take way too much. It should be noted that this wasn’t the first time he’d taken psychedelics at all. I’d actually done them with him at the album listening party for our first studio album. It admittedly wasn’t super strong stuff, but we ended up jamming for a while and laying down the framework for what became the project’s last song.

None of these lower dosage trips led him to any kind of spiritual insights however, and he was hell bent on changing that. Did it work? Weeeelll, the dude came back from Arizona talking about telepathic communication and spontaneously reliving moments he’d forgotten about his childhood from different perspectives, then contemplating how this related to his adult life for weeks. What else, some sort of interface with electronic devices if I’m remembering correctly, but basically just other proto-typical tripping the fuck out fare. It was incredibly unpleasant and challenging, but he didn’t regret it a bit.

And heeeere’s the kicker. He was no longer an atheist. Not only was he no longer an atheist, but he denied ever being one. It was the most surreal thing ever. He’d sit there and explain to the three of us that he was always more of an agnostic and we’d be like, dude, we’ve had this drunken conversation a hundred times over the last 3 years, do you not remember these conversations? Apparently he doesn’t. We do. So somehow, this drug encounter was so profound that he actually blacked out the fact that he had ever subscribed to the infallibility of scientific reductionism in the first place.

I ran into him a few months back at a show, asked if I could write about this transformation and he was cool with it. He then basically professed to the reality of telepathic phenomenon and the potentiality of between mind communication. We’re all tied together, we need to figure out a way to harness these abilities, he argued. I’m on it (friend me on Facebook for high strangeness). But there was something else, for the entirety of the time I was playing in a band with the guy, he took prescription anti-anxiety medication and because of this re-awakening, he’d voluntarily taken himself off. He even went through some serious withdrawals in doing so, which is something the pharmaceutical companies love to downplay. Was this a good idea? You got me, only time will tell I suppose. What I do know is that I played in a band with a professed atheist for 3.5 years. His spiritual perspective then quite suddenly flipped on a dime exactly after heroically dosing himself to eternity on psilocybin. That’s a fact.

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  • Matt Staggs

    Bobby the Jean in 5…4…3…

  • Matt Staggs

    Bobby the Jean in 5…4…3…

    • emperorreagan

      This headline surely was picked to troll hard-line atheists.

      • Matt Staggs

        Yea, I changed the author’s original headline from something that was kind of ambiguous. The “cure atheists” thing is the central crux of the piece. Might as well make it front and center.

        • bobbiethejean

          I tried. I really did this time. I promised myself I wasn’t going to take one clown’s opinion…. or several clowns’ opinions…. that I am a “disease entity in need of a cure” personally. Failed. Y__Y I’m sure I’ll get the opportunity soon enough though. These kinds of article seem to pop up frequently on this site.

        • Bruce Johnson

          ( Wondering if Psilocybin might cure you of your religious delusions) :)

    • bobbiethejean

      Nah. It’s not worth it. I give up. These people are too far gone. If they think of atheism as something that can be “cured” by psychedelics, then they are too illogical and too irrational to even be having a discussion with. There’s no point. It’s like arguing with an fool who isn’t capable of changing his mind. Why bother? Nothing I say will penetrate their basaltic, logic-proof skulls. A “Cure” for atheism. Pfttt. What we really need is a cure for stupidity. Maybe then we’ll see less of this nonsense.

      Incidentally, my mother knew a girl who went on an LSD trip, fried her brain, and ended up like a five year old for the rest of her life. Her boyfriend would go visit her at the hospital several times a week. He would walk her around the grounds and give her lolipops and she would smile and laugh. He did that all the way up until he died. She never got better.

      Personally, I know a guy, fairly smart, used to be the worst tight-ass in the universe. I mean, I’m surprised the shear clenchitude of this guy’s backside didn’t create a singularity and suck in all surrounding matter, eventually forming a blackhole with its own accretion disk of what was once Earth. LSD REALLY mellowed him the fuck out. He’s still an atheist though. But when he goes on an LSD trip, he thinks he spontaneously becomes a genius. I’ve heard him. He actually sounds quite like an idiot. He repeats himself a lot, babbles, and hallucinates very strange things.

      • Calypso_1

        Did the girl think she was an orange?

        • echar

          Was she afraid of a straw?

          • Calypso_1

            Quite possibly, one of the many strange comorbidities with psychedelic induced fruitiform body dysmorphia.

          • echar

            I heard that one too, but it was a whole sheet of acid in the back pocket of a dude that accidentally ran through a sprinkler. I heard it at the same time when I heard the one about the guy handing out acid to kids at the grade school. Saying they were stickers.

          • Calypso_1

            If the guy looked like Jesus it was probably me. But they were rub on tattoos man.

          • echar

            That was you?

          • Calypso_1

            After the vision of the Egyptian Funerary Boat the Bird People wouldn’t leave me alone. Little BlueJay headed fuckers always dancing around the sun making strange glyphs with their genitals.
            Then Anubis started following me around in the form of a 3-legged black dog. I asked why he had a jackal head. “Because it was a form suitable for his task” he says.
            Next thing I knew – SHAZAM! Acid-Christ.

        • lazy_friend

          The tale around here is that the guy who did too much acid thought that he was a cup of orange juice and was afraid of tipping over

          • Calypso_1

            Was there a straw in the cup?

          • lazy_friend

            I think he did have a straw accessory but the tale seems to be as old as time it self so the straw might have been lost

          • Calypso_1

            The mystery deepens.

            The crazy straw was invented (by a glass blower) exactly 444 days before the first synthesis by Hofmann.

            444 is the annunciation of the archangels is the # of both Christ and Lucifer & is interwoven with crop circle geometry.
            http://www.greatdreams.com/numbers/444/444.htm

      • http://www.facebook.com/andrei.serde Andrei Serde

        Maybe your mom lied to you so you don’t try it =) It is ridiculous to think of an LSD trip frying your brain. Educate yourself.

        To consider yourself an atheist is unwise. Wise would be to consider yourself an agnostic. Why ? Because we don’t know shit. Might as well not jump to absolute conclusions.

        What about spirituality ? What do you think about compassion, self-awareness, self-critique, self-education etc ? Do you think you need to BELIEVE in order to have these characteristics ?

        And I’m not saying about knowing their description. I mean are you actually using them consistently in your day-to-day life ?

        • David Howe

          Not true. We know shit, like there is no god.

        • bobbiethejean

          Maybe your mom lied to you so you don’t try it My mother isn’t the sort to lie and furthermore, she told me that story right after an explicit description of how hilarious her LSD trips were. Then we had a conversation about how I’d like to try it someday as long as I could be assured it was clean and not cut with rat poison or something else which was probably what turned Polly into a potato. Then she replied that they should start selling tickets for the event because me on an acid trip would be the most insane thing ever on the planet.

          To consider yourself an atheist is unwise. There is no such thing as a true agnostic. I am an agnostic-atheist which means that I don’t believe but I admit that I don’t know. It’s the most defensible stance. It doesn’t make an positive assertions and it leaves room for the possibility of being wrong. Anyone who says “I’m just an agnostic” doesn’t know what the word means.

          What about spirituality ? I think spirituality can mean a lot of different things for a lot of different people. Personally, I have no use for it. Or maybe I just don’t like the word spiritual. I dunno. But there are times when I think I might be having a “spiritual experience” as someone else would define it. Like, just the other day I discovered this new song. It wracked my body with frissons and made me feel stupidly happy. I couldn’t help but dance. It’s a good thing it was nighttime because my neighbors would have seen me beebopping down the street like a giant pigeon. XD I wouldn’t call that a spiritual experience necessarily but I wouldn’t care if someone else wanted to define it as such.

          What do you think about compassion, self-awareness, self-critique,
          self-education etc ? Do you think you need to BELIEVE in order to have
          these characteristics.
          Absolutely not. I am a highly empathetic person. I don’t need religion or spirituality to tell me to feel sad for someone I see suffering or cry when a character in a book dies or want to help a stray kitten or save the Chinese Tigers or provide better opportunities for poor kids etc etc. That just comes naturally to me.

          Self awareness is one of the best traits a human can have and it is sadly lacking in so many. Self-critique is not only vital to me as someone who aspires to be an intellectual but also as an artist. If I couldn’t self-critique, I wouldn’t be able to do what I do. Self-education? I learned most of what I know through that very thing because the schools I went to…… let’s just say the conditions were not ripe for learning.

          • Kevin Leonard

            won’t sample lsd until it is verified
            won’t sample spiritual realms until they are verified

            as an artist, consider that, perhaps, you might enjoy the aesthetic of actual reality as flexible as your artistic vision

          • Andrew
          • bobbiethejean

            Yes but agnosticism is not mutually exclusive with belief. Agnosticism speaks to what we know. Belief is just a matter of opinion. Do you believe there are gods? Disbelieve? Believe there are no gods?

          • Andrew

            I don’t have an opinion. I think there might be or might not be depending on my mood.

          • lazy_friend

            To me, agnosticism is defined by this statement: “There is a god, maybe”. It’s all about the “maybe” till it’s proven.

          • bobbiethejean

            Agnostic very specifically means “I don’t know.” It speaks to knowledge only. Belief is a different matter.

            One can be an agnostic-atheist who says “I don’t know but I don’t believe.” One can be an agnostic-theist who says “I do not know but I believe in a personal god.” One can be an agnostic-deist who says “I do not know but I believe there may be impersonal god/s out there.”

            Did that make any sense? ^__^;

          • lazy_friend

            I dig, but we do know that the concept exists and probability says that some where in the universe god will eventually exist as everything imagined will exist or exists in a parallel. I had a very long conversation about this and we came to the conclusion of “maybe”. I don’t know is too humble and vague, and the whole point of science is to know stuff and things. But like I said in previous articles, I respect your views because I don’t have to follow them but I can ponder on them. From wiki : Agnosticism can be defined in various ways, and is sometimes used to indicate doubt or a skeptical approach to questions.

          • lazy_friend

            But you do make a very strong and well articulated case for your views and your posts do make me think, which is a compliment. You probably could have been a very good lawyer.

          • http://www.facebook.com/andrei.serde Andrei Serde

            From Wikipedia:

            “The term “spirituality” lacks a definitive definition, although social scientists have defined spirituality as the search for “the sacred,” where “the sacred” is broadly defined as that which is set apart from the ordinary and worthy of veneration.
            The use of the term “spirituality” has changed throughout the ages. In modern times spirituality is often separated from religion, and connotes a blend of humanistic psychology with mystical and esoteric traditions and eastern religions aimed at personal well-being and personal development.”

            So the problem is actually your own vocabulary. For many people, including many scientists, you are a spiritual person. Now deal with it. =)

          • bobbiethejean

            Ya know what? Ok. :) I am a spiritual person. God it feels so weird to be admitting that. O__O I feel like I should be bursting into flames or something.

          • moremisinformation

            “as I could be assured it was clean and not cut with rat poison or something else”.

            Does LSD get “cut” before or after one puts their baby in the microwave? Or
            am I just mixing up urban legends that lost their meaning after middle
            school?

          • bobbiethejean

            Yeah haha, congrats on completely missing the point. You want a cookie? My point is, sometimes bad shit happens to people who take LSD and I wouldn’t want to risk it.

          • The Well Dressed Man

            Yeah. It really sucks when you’re just coming up on some liquid, and scary shit goes down, and then like a year later, boom- you’re reliving it, freaked out very very badly.
            http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P6KEgf7-1vY

        • http://www.facebook.com/erika.chimerika Erika Chimerika

          if i could insinuate myself into this conversation, merely to lend my perspective to this discussion… i too am an atheist, and i was a little bit offended reading this article… it’s curious to me that you would mention ‘compassion’ because i feel like this article lacks something close to it; consideration, for the fact that there’s nothing about being an atheist which needs to be rectified; there was, however, something about the authors band-mates ability to respect people which needed changing for the better.

          the fellow band-mate who, converted from being an atheist to becoming spiritual, could have learned to be less of an arrogant, passive-aggressive ass while maintaining his atheism. in my opinion, atheism wasn’t the CAUSE of the band-mates assholery, though i can’t say *what* it was without knowing more about him; i’m *guessing* that what happened was that the person in question was insecure and depending on atheism for a sense of what he believed to be ‘security’ but which was really superiority, and felt threatened when he couldn’t understand something, so he acted out. that’s generally how people are, whether they’re atheist or not. if something challenges what you’re depending on for your identity or security, you feel the need to defend it, and the way a lot of people go about this is with aggression (or passive-aggression).

          a few years ago i was a stereotypical ‘angry atheist’ (i was also a teenager, so perhaps that had something to do with my attitude lol) and i was dismissive, if not outright offensive, regarding any sort of religion or spirituality… and i realized, not with drugs or spirituality or any combination thereof, but by examining my motives for acting that way (self-awareness, which you also mention) that i was acting horribly and needed to change. and i did, else i’d feel threatened right now and i’d be attacking, in my defense. i’m much more open-minded now that i’ve learned to stop interpreting articles like this as personal attacks. that doesn’t mean that i necessarily believe in the validity of the assertions being made, but that i can accept that this is what other people believe, and that it serves a purpose for them, and i have no right to act with defensive aggression because their interpretations of their experiences differ from mine. that’s what the acknowledgement of subjectivity IS, it’s respect for everyone’s differing beliefs, or lack thereof, and respect means that you don’t try to change people, but accept them as they are. i feel like the tone of the article, and a few comments, lack this respect, and instead adopts a slightly (but palpable) condescendingly superior tone. this is not conducive to actual discussion, only argument.
          i should mention, perhaps, as it is relevant to how i learned not to be a bitch about my atheism; atheism is a very small part of my identity. the more you identify with something, the more you’re likely to take challenges to that concept personally, and react aggressively.

          finally, (i’m not saying you’re ‘wrong’ but that my perspective differs, and this is a further example of subjectivity and interpretation) i consider compassion, self-awareness, self-critique and self-education to all fall under the purview of ‘psychology’ and ‘philosophy’ instead of spirituality (though the word ‘psychology’ does literally translate into ‘study of the soul’ i prefer to consider it the study of mental processes, because that is how i employ it). psychology and philosophy serve me quite well in developing and employing all of the traits which you mentioned. i sincerely hope that i have demonstrated that it’s possible to be respectful of people with whom one disagrees, and that this has little to do with my stance on religious or spiritual matters, and more to do with what i identify with; i consider myself a decent human being, one who behaves towards others with the consideration and respect they deserve. what is important to me is being a good person, not being an atheist.

          and that’s all i have to say, because i’m more concerned with and focused on what appears to me to be the attitude towards atheists/atheism, than anything else.

        • http://www.facebook.com/erika.chimerika Erika Chimerika

          if i could insinuate myself into this conversation, merely to lend my perspective to this discussion… i too am an atheist, and i was a little bit offended reading this article… it’s curious to me that you would mention ‘compassion’ because i feel like this article lacks something close to it; consideration, for the fact that there’s nothing about being an atheist which needs to be rectified; there was, however, something about the authors band-mates ability to respect people which needed changing for the better.

          the fellow band-mate who, converted from being an atheist to becoming spiritual, could have learned to be less of an arrogant, passive-aggressive ass while maintaining his atheism. in my opinion, atheism wasn’t the CAUSE of the band-mates assholery, though i can’t say *what* it was without knowing more about him; i’m *guessing* that what happened was that the person in question was insecure and depending on atheism for a sense of what he believed to be ‘security’ but which was really superiority, and felt threatened when he couldn’t understand something, so he acted out. that’s generally how people are, whether they’re atheist or not. if something challenges what you’re depending on for your identity or security, you feel the need to defend it, and the way a lot of people go about this is with aggression (or passive-aggression).

          a few years ago i was a stereotypical ‘angry atheist’ (i was also a teenager, so perhaps that had something to do with my attitude lol) and i was dismissive, if not outright offensive, regarding any sort of religion or spirituality… and i realized, not with drugs or spirituality or any combination thereof, but by examining my motives for acting that way (self-awareness, which you also mention) that i was acting horribly and needed to change. and i did, else i’d feel threatened right now and i’d be attacking, in my defense. i’m much more open-minded now that i’ve learned to stop interpreting articles like this as personal attacks. that doesn’t mean that i necessarily believe in the validity of the assertions being made, but that i can accept that this is what other people believe, and that it serves a purpose for them, and i have no right to act with defensive aggression because their interpretations of their experiences differ from mine. that’s what the acknowledgement of subjectivity IS, it’s respect for everyone’s differing beliefs, or lack thereof, and respect means that you don’t try to change people, but accept them as they are. i feel like the tone of the article, and a few comments, lack this respect, and instead adopts a slightly (but palpable) condescendingly superior tone. this is not conducive to actual discussion, only argument.
          i should mention, perhaps, as it is relevant to how i learned not to be a bitch about my atheism; atheism is a very small part of my identity. the more you identify with something, the more you’re likely to take challenges to that concept personally, and react aggressively.

          finally, (i’m not saying you’re ‘wrong’ but that my perspective differs, and this is a further example of subjectivity and interpretation) i consider compassion, self-awareness, self-critique and self-education to all fall under the purview of ‘psychology’ and ‘philosophy’ instead of spirituality (though the word ‘psychology’ does literally translate into ‘study of the soul’ i prefer to consider it the study of mental processes, because that is how i employ it). psychology and philosophy serve me quite well in developing and employing all of the traits which you mentioned. i sincerely hope that i have demonstrated that it’s possible to be respectful of people with whom one disagrees, and that this has little to do with my stance on religious or spiritual matters, and more to do with what i identify with; i consider myself a decent human being, one who behaves towards others with the consideration and respect they deserve. what is important to me is being a good person, not being an atheist.

          and that’s all i have to say, because i’m more concerned with and focused on what appears to me to be the attitude towards atheists/atheism, than anything else.

      • echar

        Do you think hallucinogens can discourage a sense of bigoted superiority and dogmatic attachments to ideas?

        Saying things like:

        It’s like arguing with an fool who isn’t capable of changing his mind. Why bother?

        To me, it seems rather narrow minded and well foolish of you to say this. They certainly will not be willing to listen if that is your come from.

        I honestly believe that hallucinogens and entheogens are nothing to take lightly. I can say this because I have experience. I dropped so much acid in Jr. High that when I moved to a new state I thought I was in movie. It didn’t help that they wore letterman sweaters instead of jackets, and there was old school burger joints like in the 50’s. This is to say it did things to my consciousness that I was not prepared for.

        With that said I am thankful for the augmentations. If I choose to partake again the settings will be much different. Also there is much scientific (a word you appear to throw around like a talisman) research put into light and sound brainwave entrainment. It can cause altered states of consciousness. I view it as much safer. What I mainly trying to say is that it’s not for everyone, and I do not begrudge a person from abstaining. What I do dislike is someone acting all high and mighty. Which is a common trait for atheists.

        Oh and your comment about adults.

        A child-like man is not a man whose development has been arrested; on the contrary, he is a man who has given himself a chance of continuing to develop long after most adults have muffled themselves in the cocoon of middle-aged habit and convention.

        Aldous Huxley

        Adults get all bent out of shape over things they don’t understand, or things they think they have totally figured out. Kids don’t want to go to sleep because everything is fantastic and new.

        • bobbiethejean

          bigoted superiority and dogmatic It’s not bigoted and superior or dogmatic. I’m just being factual. A lot of the people making these arguments are too stupid to change their minds when they’re wrong. Me? When I discover that I’m wrong about something, I will spin on a dime and change my mind because there are no opinions I hold so dear that I feel the need to lie to myself to maintain them.

          (a word you appear to throw around like a talisman) Yeah. It’s no secret that I love science. So what?

          Which is a common trait for atheists. But it’s perfectly ok to talk about atheism as if it is a mental disorder or disease to be “cured.” Double standard much? My only contention in all this is that psychedelics, no matter how much fun they may be, are not a legitimate way of understanding the nature of the universe. Maybe it can help you understand the nature of YOU and maybe even other people, but you’re not suddenly going to become Einstein on an LSD trip.

          Lastly, I really don’t think the Huxley comment is fitting here. I would tend to lean more towards Samuel Clemmens “Faith is believing something you know ain’t true.”

          I don’t begrudge people their LSD trips or even their beliefs in whatever makes them happy however ridiculous those beliefs may be. What I DO begrudge is being treated like a disease entity that needs a cure because I looked at the universe and came to a different conclusion than you people.

          • echar

            I wrote some stuff, but it doesn’t matter. I am a you people. I have made a choice to see from your perspective.

            I will note that you are barking up the wrong tree with words like faith. I know because I have experienced. Good day to you.

          • bobbiethejean

            Also, you people? Nope not bigoted. Maybe that wasn’t the best choice of words but I fail to see how that’s bigoted.

            My honest view on atheists is that they are limiting themselves for whatever reason. That can only be said of atheists who positively assert that there is/are not god/s. Agnostic-atheists, like myself, do not believe in gods but we admit that we don’t know and we allow for the possibility that we may be wrong. I don’t see that as limiting myself, I see that as not being gullible and also not being close-minded.

          • Rek Init

            The title “Cure to Atheism” might sound insulting to atheists (or agnostic atheists), but I believe the person chose that title simply to draw attention. Outrageous titles like that will grab people’s attention, after all, you read it despite the fact that you thought it was irrational. If you did actually read the article, the phrase “cure for atheism” is actually depicted as a kind of metanoia. It’s a change in perspective more so than a cure for a diseased person, and it’s presented as such despite the title.

            The author didn’t make references, but there are famous cases of people abandoning atheism after a major psychedelic experience, some examples are Richard Alpert, Jack Kerouac, Timothy Leary, Allen Ginsberg and Alan Watts to name a few.

            Terence McKenna once said that psychedelics are to psychology what the telescope was to astronomy during Galileo’s time. They are legitimate tools for exploring consciousness. They offer powerful insight into the nature of consciousness, and perhaps even the universe since consciousness is embedded in this grand multiverse. You contend that they may be “fun,” but I say if you think this stuff is fun, then you’ve missed the point.

            Notice the author and many people in the comments below are talking about “heroic doses.” It is these massive doses that elicit this type of metanoia or colossal altered states. This is the shamanic fashion of taking psychedelics not to be confused with the recreational light doses which can be “fun,” but once you raise the dose, it becomes an entirely different experience which can be quite hell-ishly terrifying for some people, but these effects are exclusive to high doses. Low doses can be equivalent to what you get with cannabis. They may be a bit more weird than usual, and perhaps induce minor distortions in perception, but they do not spring forth the onslaught hallucinatory visions and profound emotions, intuitions that you find with the “heroic doses.” The two examples you gave of people you knew personally who tried some of this stuff don’t really pay any justice. I think if you’re going to base your opinion on psychedelics on those accounts, then you’ve entirely missed the point.

  • http://www.facebook.com/bear.prather Bear Prather

    I personally have had this same experiance

  • http://www.facebook.com/bear.prather Bear Prather

    I personally have had this same experiance

  • honu

    Yeah, I definitely believe if you take a heroic dose of psilocybin the chances that your atheism survives post trip drops significantly. Maybe a mind so entrenched in not letting go during the experience would lead them into a hell ride that would swear them off psychedelics forever and may not give them a true religious experience. Personally, I was interested in spiritual matters before I dropped acid but it really wasn’t until my 22nd birthday trip when me and a friend left our bodies and communicated sans physical form watching the world hovering from about 200 feet above that I realized that everything religion and spiritual texts were really talking about was much larger, complex and multidimensional. So thumbs up on the heroic dose shattering atheism theory.

    • Shawn Belanger

      It’s funny how I’ve had the same experiences, and taken plenty of ‘heroic doses’ before, yet only became more resolute in my atheism as a result. In my book, all those things that I was experiencing weren’t supernatural at all, but only matter-of-fact science that we haven’t quite discovered yet. Yes, there is a much wider world out there than what we usually see and experience, but I can’t make the jump in ascribing supernatural meaning to things that are unknown beyond the mere conjecture of an intoxicated mind. Yeah, my tripping buddies always hated me for tempering their ecstatic fantasies with doses of brutal realty. Always made for a great dynamic though, and ridiculous conversations.

      • disqus_6JDef1R8rP

        “supernatrual? na your not getting it…..no one mention the ghost or ufo that 2d societs make up….. do enough of the right kind…you hav no clue it seems

        • Shawn Belanger

          You can’t seem to be able to hold any command over the English language, so I won’t berate you too much for not knowing the meaning of the word supernatural. However, I will point out that the way you choose to express your thoughts in writing makes you seem like an unintelligible idiot. I’m guessing you had a point to make (although I highly doubt it to be a cogent one), but none will ever be able to discern it because of the infantile and lazy way you choose to express yourself. But yes, I have no clue, it seems. When you’re able to process a thought above a 5th grade level, and are able to write about it above a 3rd grade level, please do come back to the conversation in a way that isn’t so offensive to the very language we speak. Oh, and you’re not he type of person to be doing any drugs. Pity the few brain cells you do have. I won’t, but you should.

          • BoJangles

            Try DMT. You’ll change your mind

          • Shawn Belanger

            I have. Several times. It has never even shaken my atheism. I’ve seen and understood and experienced some truly transcendent and blissful moments, afire with all the life of the universe coursing through my very being; but alas, never anything I could call a “theos” or ascribe agency to; never a god. Only processes, algorithms, interactions, probabilities, etc., and pervasive invisible chaos. I believe in a great many instances, the god(s) that people see/experience are just projections of their own identity compressed into some sort of gestalt epiphany/cognitive defense mechanism. I know I’m no fun, but i enjoy it.

          • Rek Init

            You must at the very least realize that it depends on how you define “God.” That the processes of the so-called algorithms, interactions, probabilities, and the “pervasive invisible chaos” is delivered to your consciousness in such a way that your ordinary consciousness couldn’t have ever dreamt it up or even conceived that it exist. So, it’s then easy to see that perhaps “God” in early man was this titanic altered state of consciousness in which a full-spectrum of consciousness is glimpsed, the all-pervasive invisible chaos that was previously unseen and even unknown to your ordinary state of consciousness. Although, you may not like the term “God,” you must at the very least realize that your definition of the “universe” in respect to the psychedelic experience is quite synonymous with another person’s perspective relative to the psychedelic experience when they use the word “God.”

    • Kommie

      2000 light years is what you need to be a born again atheist after a truly heroic dose of anything psychedelic. “God” is one of those bad ideas people bring back. That particular bad idea originates mostly from the inability to properly digest a vastly broadened perception of time/existence. Read the revelation or ezekiel, jakob’s ladders or mohammed’s journey, and you get the picture.

  • Shawn Belanger

    tl;dr – Maybe

  • http://twitter.com/TedHeistman Ted Heistman

    I wonder if I huffed enough gas would I become an atheist?

    • jnana

      ever read Varieties of Religious Experience by William James? Nitrous can be a mystical experience, so can ether, why not gas?

      • drokhole

        Alan Watts – The smell of burnt almonds
        http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vwElwFB4bb0

        (The “investigator” he talks about starting around 1:40 is William James)

      • drokhole

        Alan Watts – The smell of burnt almonds
        http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vwElwFB4bb0

        (The “investigator” he talks about starting around 1:40 is William James)

        • Calypso_1

          Given the abundance of cyanogens in nebulae and the role they play in forming prebiotic nitrogen compounds in space (and eventually genetic nucleotide bases), I would say that is actually a rather profound expression of the transition of stellar evolution to life.

    • echar

      Keep on sniffing until your brain goes pop

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kY7jSesdxl0

    • bobbiethejean

      Nah. You’d probably become a devout, hardcore rightwing Christian.

      • echar

        You win

  • Eric_D_Read

    Not this person, unless the sufficient dosage is off the charts.

  • Eric_D_Read

    Not this person, unless the sufficient dosage is off the charts.

  • Andrew

    I’m sure a few months stay in Abu Ghraib or Gitmo would do the trick.

  • DeepCough

    I’m afraid I have “terminal atheism,” which means I will suffer from persistent disbelief and chronic refutation of god or gods until the day I die (this, however, does not preclude me from getting high, and thank Lucifer for that).

  • DeepCough

    I’m afraid I have “terminal atheism,” which means I will suffer from persistent disbelief and chronic refutation of god or gods until the day I die (this, however, does not preclude me from getting high, and thank Lucifer for that).

    • Monkey See Monkey Do

      Not ‘getting high’, but taking a heroic dose of psilocybe mushrooms or a heroic dose of ‘changa'(DMT) Then get back to me, not necessarily recommending it to you though for the very reasons Honu stated.

      • Matt Staggs

        Take two of these and call me in the morning?

        • DeepCough

          They got weed in them?

        • DeepCough

          They got weed in them?

          • Matt Staggs

            I know a guy…

      • DeepCough

        Now that you mention it, I could go for some ‘shrooms.

    • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=537648678 Josh Weide

      Yes, I don’t know how anyone could think that a mystical psychological journey represents proof of an intelligent creator. If that’s their conclusion they probably need a stronger dose to shake them from their dogma-derived conclusions.

  • drokhole

    I’d say that applies to the mystical experience, in general (well, as “general” as one can be). I just think that psychedelics happen to facilitate the experience in a pretty reliable way for more people (as opposed to relying on other methods, or having it occur spontaneously). That’s not to say a positive mystical experience/breakthrough with psychedelics is by any means automatic. Preparation plays a huge role, set and setting, whether you’re willing to relax and cooperate with the experience, maybe if you’ve got a decent guide, etc… I actually just read a fantastic essay by one of the guys who conducted the “Good Friday” experiment named Walter Pahnke:

    “Drugs and Mysticism”
    http://www.druglibrary.org/schaffer/lsd/pahnke.htm

    One of the things he writes is:

    “…there are others who would never be aware of the undeveloped potentials within themselves, or be inspired to work in this direction, without such an experience.”

    To echo that sentiment, there was a volunteer in another one of those early psychedelic experiments (this one conducted by Dr. James Fadiman focusing on creativity) who was himself a scientist and atheist (at the time) and had this to say:

    “I encountered an amazing presence, and felt a complete sense of the perfection in everything. I would not have believed what transpired had it not really occurred to me.”

    So, yeah, the persuasiveness lies in the experience. One more essay that’s worth reading, from Alan Watts:

    Psychedelics and Religious Experience
    http://deoxy.org/w_psyrel.htm

    Real quick on the spontaneous front, the psychiatrist Richard M Bucke had such an experience in his early 30s that set him on a path solely dedicated to the exploration of it (his seminal book “Cosmic Consciousness” being one the results). Before that, he had hardly considered “spiritual” matters and considered himself a strict logical positivist.

    One more spontaneous case worth noting (and I’ve posted it before) is this one from Allan Smith, who was a scientist at the time and a self-identified “atheistic materialist”:

    My Experience of Cosmic Consciousness
    http://www.issc-taste.org/arc/dbo.cgi?set=expom&id=00004&ss=1

    From the account:

    “By that time religion had no place in my life at all. I was an academic researcher, scientist and materialist. I was not interested in nor was I searching for any sort of transcendent or supernatural experience. I had no idea of what a mystical experience was.”

  • http://www.facebook.com/michael.weed.9 Michael Weed

    LSD had me absolutely convinced that my atheism was misguided…

    But later trips clarified that I had only framed the experiences as spiritual because I
    had no other point of reference in which to encapsulate them. I had only the
    symbolism I was familiar with to discern meaning from the experience. The
    experiences were genuine, but the way I defined them at the time was somewhat naïve.

    As time passed and my cosmological vocabulary grew, I was able to revisit such
    experiences and frame them in a manner that was free from deities (Atheism =
    Not believing in deities… simple as that) but every bit as powerful and “spiritual”
    (I dislike that word as “spirit” implies some separate “soul” or “force” which
    is not the same as what you already always are).

    I remain an atheist because belief in deities is ridiculous and completely unsubstantiated,
    but I don’t define myself by the word nor do I discredit the spiritual… they
    are, after all just using a different language/symbolism to convey the same
    experiences, and because this experiences is beyond symbolism (It is in fact, the
    source from which symbolism arises)… it really doesn’t matter how you define it
    because definition cannot contain it. Any and every explanation misses the
    point. There is only thus-ness. Ohhhmmmm…. BACON!

    • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=537648678 Josh Weide

      Well articulated. (The bacon part especially.) People’s need to call the “source” of it all “God” is naive and self-assuring.

      • echar

        I think you missed the part about using a different language/symbolism.

        no bacon for you!

  • Haystack

    I usually identify as atheist or agnostic, and psilocybin has softened my views by broadening my concept of what a “god” might consist of. That having been said, it has not caused me to all together abandon rationality.

    It’s not at all surprising that a substance that causes someone to have a profound mystical experience would tend influence his/her spiritual beliefs in the direction of belief, but however convincing that experience might have been, there is ultimately no way to tell whether it was “real,” or whether one was simply in the thrall of a drug-induced delusion. When you’re tripping, you’re dampening the part of your brain that reality-checks.

    Here’s the thing–this doesn’t undermine the value of that experience at all. First, if you gain useful new insights and perspectives from psilocybin, if you have beautiful experiences with it, then it doesn’t matter whether or not it is “just a drug,” or a passage to some new realm. Second, because your experiences are *irreducibly subjective*, they may well represent a glimpse of a higher realm–nobody can tell you for sure that they do not.

    What I’m driving at is that mystical experiences are, as the word implies, *mysteries*, and are best treated as such. I see a lot of people trying to treat them almost like scientific data; to say “I experienced X while I was tripping, and therefore I conclude that Y must be true about the material universe.” Not only this is logical over-reaching (i.e., using subjective experience to draw conclusions on objective questions), but I would argue that it profanes the experience somewhat. Treating mystical experiences like data is like using holy water to make tea.

    I prefer to say that, on psilocybin, I’ve experienced something that felt in some sense god-like, but the “true” meaning of that experience will always be a mystery to me, an unknowable question; and, in my mind, that makes it more, rather than less, valuable.

    • Monkey See Monkey Do

      Tried it lately? Or are you reminiscing? I find the retrospective view of the psychedelic experience can change the perception of it somewhat. Especially when people tried it only when they were younger.

      • Haystack

        Yes, I try to do it regularly. It washes out all the self-delusions and anxieties that build up in my brain as a result of constant interaction with commercial culture. *grin*

    • Kevin Leonard

      “When you’re tripping, you’re dampening the part of your brain that reality-checks.”

      Like the way a hockey player checks his opponent?
      Let your reality run free, bro!

      • Haystack

        When I go for a drive at night, I prefer to keep my headlamps on.

      • Haystack

        When I go for a drive at night, I prefer to keep my headlamps on.

        • Kevin Leonard

          Your headlamps limit your field of view to only what is directly in front of you. They block the perception of the light of the moon and stars, which, if it weren’t for your precious headlamps, would be not only sufficient to navigate, but would open up your perception of the world around you.

          • Haystack

            By all means, pull over and look at the moon and stars, but switch your headlights on when you need to drive.

            When I talk about reality-checking, I’m not talking about self-censorship. I’m saying that whenever you alter your perceptions, it makes sense to recognize that this is what you’re doing, and to be reflexive about it. People who fail to do so are prone to drunk-dial their ex’s, and leap into cages to commune with the polar bears.

            The perceptions you get on psychedelics are an end in themselves. Why do they need to be “real,” in some concrete sense, in order to be valuable?

          • Haystack

            By all means, pull over and look at the moon and stars, but switch your headlights on when you need to drive.

            When I talk about reality-checking, I’m not talking about self-censorship. I’m saying that whenever you alter your perceptions, it makes sense to recognize that this is what you’re doing, and to be reflexive about it. People who fail to do so are prone to drunk-dial their ex’s, and leap into cages to commune with the polar bears.

            The perceptions you get on psychedelics are an end in themselves. Why do they need to be “real,” in some concrete sense, in order to be valuable?

          • JoiquimCouteau

            They don’t “need” to be, that’s just the way it is.

          • Kevin Leonard

            But you must realize that what we regard as “normal” perceptions might better be called consensus reality. The Australian aborigines, for example, lived in dreamtime before the white man imposed his reality. Prior, they had no use for headlamps. But the stories abound that one might know what his brother was doing while they were miles part. That they knew when and where they needed to hunt based on information that they were privy to that did not come to them from what we consider normal perceptions.

            It is easy to live outside another’s experience and decry that experience as not real, because it it is not part of your reality. It is easy to say something was just a hallucination, or a figment of their imagination, or a dream, or mere coincidence, or selective memory. It is far more challenging to accept the possibility that there are greater things in heaven and earth that are dreamt of in your philosophy. Psychedelics part the veil. They have the potential to reveal the greater things. You always have the option of going back to believing the constricted view imposed by consensus reality.

          • Kevin Leonard

            But you must realize that what we regard as “normal” perceptions might better be called consensus reality. The Australian aborigines, for example, lived in dreamtime before the white man imposed his reality. Prior, they had no use for headlamps. But the stories abound that one might know what his brother was doing while they were miles part. That they knew when and where they needed to hunt based on information that they were privy to that did not come to them from what we consider normal perceptions.

            It is easy to live outside another’s experience and decry that experience as not real, because it it is not part of your reality. It is easy to say something was just a hallucination, or a figment of their imagination, or a dream, or mere coincidence, or selective memory. It is far more challenging to accept the possibility that there are greater things in heaven and earth that are dreamt of in your philosophy. Psychedelics part the veil. They have the potential to reveal the greater things. You always have the option of going back to believing the constricted view imposed by consensus reality.

          • Haystack

            I’m not saying that it isn’t real. I’m just saying that, since it’s an irreducibly subjective experience, one has no way of knowing for sure. I’m agnostic on the question.

          • Kevin Leonard

            Okay. I’ll concede that many of the experiences are purely hallucinatory and truly, ends in themselves. I’ll also admit that truths that are revealed are still colored by kaleidoscope glasses. And that discernment can be a challenge, which is why I meditate now, instead of trip.

            I was trying to think of an analogy. Let us say that the unadulterated reality is like pure, full-fat, cream from cow’s milk. The aborigines were living in a reality that was like vanilla ice cream. We live in a reality that is like McDonald’s soft serve. We think it’s the real deal, but it isn’t. Psychedelics give us a taste of Ben and Jerry’s Frozen Yogurt- really fun, but not pure vanilla, and lots of extra crap in it.

          • Kevin Leonard

            Okay. I’ll concede that many of the experiences are purely hallucinatory and truly, ends in themselves. I’ll also admit that truths that are revealed are still colored by kaleidoscope glasses. And that discernment can be a challenge, which is why I meditate now, instead of trip.

            I was trying to think of an analogy. Let us say that the unadulterated reality is like pure, full-fat, cream from cow’s milk. The aborigines were living in a reality that was like vanilla ice cream. We live in a reality that is like McDonald’s soft serve. We think it’s the real deal, but it isn’t. Psychedelics give us a taste of Ben and Jerry’s Frozen Yogurt- really fun, but not pure vanilla, and lots of extra crap in it.

          • Haystack

            I think that’s probably true.

          • Haystack

            I think that’s probably true.

  • http://www.facebook.com/danecollins Danny Collins

    I have to credit psychedelics for making me the non-believer I am today.

    • Kevin Leonard

      When I was doing my first experiments with psychedelics, I was a belief-oriented Christian. Etched forever in my consciousness was the one trip where I looked down at the silver cross I always wore around my neck. I saw it very clearly for what it was… a piece of metal that I had used to symbolize a belief that had no basis in any reality. I ripped the thing off of my neck and left it between the sofa cushions. Beliefs are fickle.

      But I also recognize the experiences with psychedelics gave me unwavering knowledge that there was far more to reality than what reaches our awareness through the “reducing valve of the brain.”

      • http://www.facebook.com/danecollins Danny Collins

        I agree. And I think that’s the key here. Nobody walks away from a genuine psychedelic experience still believing reality is merely what they’ve been experiencing. But that should lead away from belief systems, not toward them. There are no words to explain my psychedelic discoveries, so there’s no simple idea to call a belief.

      • http://www.facebook.com/danecollins Danny Collins

        I agree. And I think that’s the key here. Nobody walks away from a genuine psychedelic experience still believing reality is merely what they’ve been experiencing. But that should lead away from belief systems, not toward them. There are no words to explain my psychedelic discoveries, so there’s no simple idea to call a belief.

  • Raymond Johnson

    An old friend of mine, when we were around 20 we did a lot of tripping together. His family was Pentecostal (he was gay and atheist) ; a lot of mental illness in that family – long psychiatric confinements, electroshock, meds, etc. His 18 year old sister was a hard core fundie Christian, and she did not appreciate me tripping with her brother _at all_ … so I dared her to take some LSD, after all, Jesus would protect her, right? She took it… and after 45 minutes of grim silence she blurts out to me and her brother … “I WANT TO FUCK YOU BOTH. AT ONCE. NOW…” she got quite upset at being talked down from this notion. She did a lot of acid after this, began dating a Rastafarian and stopped talking about Jesus ; and she eventually simply vanished one day. No one has seen or heard from Anne Marie since.

    • honu

      Jesus!

      • Juan

        “Jew said it, mang; nobody fucks with the Jesus.”
        -Jesus

    • lazy_friend

      awesome story except the gone missing part

  • http://twitter.com/brocktopia brocktopia

    It’s so fucking sad that when someone encounters something well outside of their day to day existence and they have to turn it into a religious experience.

    • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=742104313 Adam Goodwin

      By that you imply that religious experience is only within the day-to-day existence, yes?

  • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=742104313 Adam Goodwin

    On shrooms i consistently come to the conclusion that everything about the external world is simply metaphor to guide my own choices, that the only reality is my ability to make those choices, and that after i make my choices, the experience of metaphor is all I ever wanted.

  • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=742104313 Adam Goodwin

    On shrooms i consistently come to the conclusion that everything about the external world is simply metaphor to guide my own choices, that the only reality is my ability to make those choices, and that after i make my choices, the experience of metaphor is all I ever wanted.

  • jnana

    i used to wonder how all those CIA guys could drop L and remain CIA and not go nuts, or the Manson Family.
    Set n setting determine a lot(but not everything)

  • http://www.facebook.com/Iankennedywilliams Ian Kennedy

    Having never tried these narcotics, and never will I, I know for a fact that these have no use beyond recreational inebriation. Does that sound retarded enough?

    • Kevin Leonard

      Yes.

    • http://www.facebook.com/Iankennedywilliams Ian Kennedy

      I feel kind of bad for those of you who fail to see obvious satire.

      • Kevin Leonard

        I just thought you were stupid. I felt kind of bad for you.
        So I agreed with you to make you feel better.

  • Tchoutoye

    Can a Sufficient Dose of Psilocybin Mushrooms Cure Someone of Atheism?

    Speaking from my own personal experience, that answer has to be yes. Although what constitutes atheism stands or falls on one’s definition of “god”. I couldn’t even describe “god” in meaningful words for myself (certainly not an anthropomorphic authority figure residing on a cloud), let alone words that atheists or religious people would agree on.

    • drokhole

      Would it be something along the lines of this:

      http://www.issc-taste.org/arc/dbo.cgi?set=expom&id=00004&ss=1
      “The benign nature and ground of being, with which I was united, was God. However, there is little relation between my experience of God as ground of being and the anthropomorphic God of the Bible. That God is separate from the world and has many human characteristics. ‘He’ demonstrates love, anger and vengeance, makes demands, gives rewards, punishes, forgives, etc. God as experienced in Cosmic Consciousness is the very ground or ‘beingness’ of the universe and has no human characteristics in the usual sense of the word. The universe could no more be separate from God than my body could be separate from its cells. Moreover, the only emotion that I would associate with God is love, but it would be more accurate to say that God is love than God is loving. Again, even characterizing God as love and the ground of being is only a metaphor, but it is the best that I can do to describe an indescribable experience.”

      • Juan

        Works for me:)

      • Juan

        Works for me:)

  • http://www.facebook.com/will.keffer.3 Will Keffer

    I would think that if one did enough drugs to permanently alter perception and cripple the brains ability to think critically, then yes it would “cure their Atheism”. A bad acid trip cured my older sister.

  • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=537648678 Josh Weide

    Is this supposed to be an article? You think because psychedelics can expand your consciousness or open your mind that somehow this lends some credence to telepathy, astral projection, or alien abduction? These 3 phenomena would be VERY easy to test if they were real, and could be proven true again and again and again. So far no takers. All we have is anecdotal claims of people who are prone to take the inner chaos of their minds and assign some greater truth behind it, and of course, they know exactly what that truth is. It’s astral projection. Or telepathy. Must be. Can’t be delusion, hallucination, or imagination. It just can’t be. It’s just so real. So real, despite the fact that these pheonomena haven’t been demonstrated to be true over the course of hundreds of years of scientific inquiry. It’s useless to go on a blog and claim “it’s real because I feel it’s real.” That’s what we call bullshit. If telepathy is real, PROVE IT. Tell me what I’m thinking, or tell me a secret about myself I’ve never told anyone before. If astral projection is real, then PROVE IT. Tell me what my aunt Sally in Delaware is doing right now, then let me call her and confirm. To believe something so fantastical without ANY coroborating proof (when so much proof should exist) is just foolish.

  • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=537648678 Josh Weide

    Is this supposed to be an article? You think because psychedelics can expand your consciousness or open your mind that somehow this lends some credence to telepathy, astral projection, or alien abduction? These 3 phenomena would be VERY easy to test if they were real, and could be proven true again and again and again. So far no takers. All we have is anecdotal claims of people who are prone to take the inner chaos of their minds and assign some greater truth behind it, and of course, they know exactly what that truth is. It’s astral projection. Or telepathy. Must be. Can’t be delusion, hallucination, or imagination. It just can’t be. It’s just so real. So real, despite the fact that these pheonomena haven’t been demonstrated to be true over the course of hundreds of years of scientific inquiry. It’s useless to go on a blog and claim “it’s real because I feel it’s real.” That’s what we call bullshit. If telepathy is real, PROVE IT. Tell me what I’m thinking, or tell me a secret about myself I’ve never told anyone before. If astral projection is real, then PROVE IT. Tell me what my aunt Sally in Delaware is doing right now, then let me call her and confirm. To believe something so fantastical without ANY coroborating proof (when so much proof should exist) is just foolish.

    • jnana

      commit yerself to spiritual knowledge, with Love as yer goal. Then, perhaps, you may be deemed worthy enough to experience telepathy and other spiritual phenomena. Of course, after that you probably would not feel the need to prove it to skeptics.

  • Calypso_1

    Such experience served most to convince me that consciousness is as pervasive and integral a force & form within the universe as time/space & matter/energy. Though that consciousness was manifest in myriad ways, even in a unitary nature, it in no way was Theos, nor did it want to be. It was however apparent from such experiences that the interpretation of them as handed down to laity could
    wholly account for the presence of religion as a phenomenon within human culture.

  • Calypso_1

    Such experience served most to convince me that consciousness is as pervasive and integral a force & form within the universe as time/space & matter/energy. Though that consciousness was manifest in myriad ways, even in a unitary nature, it in no way was Theos, nor did it want to be. It was however apparent from such experiences that the interpretation of them as handed down to laity could
    wholly account for the presence of religion as a phenomenon within human culture.

    • jnana

      Theos may probably be better described as the source of consciousness or perhaps, consciousness’ distillate.But its best not to presume to describe Theos, just throwing out ideas, here

      • Calypso_1

        In searching for a term I came up wanting, but that is what came to mind. So in a sense I was not in a state able to describe the nature of being as it was to me then or now. The lack of a substantial communicative vessel to transport what was ineffable is more a measure of myself as a mere dram of consciousness’ distillation in the transposition of what few notes I can glean from the chords of an unyielding mystery of which I am ever grateful to have tasted.

        • jnana

          He who Is, is ineffable

          • Calypso_1

            My predilections maketh me cleave to She who is f-able.

          • jnana

            Touche.
            :)

  • Trevor Smith

    It depends so much on the set/setting, but it happens all the time.

  • Trevor Smith

    It depends so much on the set/setting, but it happens all the time.

  • echar

    The last thing I want to think about while tripping balls is religion and even some spirituality. The imagery can be so strong with demons, eternal damnation, and the sort.

    however, I had an experience that strengthened my connection with the all. It came after being introduced to the Celestine Prophecy by James Redfield, reading it from front to back, and dropping some Mad Hatter blotter with some people I went to school with. I mentioned the epic grocery store Gummy Saver event, well this was it. But on the way back we got lost, and some interesting synchronicities occurred.

    If it all really happened is not important. It’s how I felt and still feel about these experiences that matters. To be honest, it’s obtuse to think about spirituality and religion being sparked by a toxic reaction to a plant. I am aware of the theory about mushrooms being a sentient being from another planet spreading their lesson, or basically panspermia. It’s fun stuff, perhaps too fun for some minds.

  • echar

    The last thing I want to think about while tripping balls is religion and even some spirituality. The imagery can be so strong with demons, eternal damnation, and the sort.

    however, I had an experience that strengthened my connection with the all. It came after being introduced to the Celestine Prophecy by James Redfield, reading it from front to back, and dropping some Mad Hatter blotter with some people I went to school with. I mentioned the epic grocery store Gummy Saver event, well this was it. But on the way back we got lost, and some interesting synchronicities occurred.

    If it all really happened is not important. It’s how I felt and still feel about these experiences that matters. To be honest, it’s obtuse to think about spirituality and religion being sparked by a toxic reaction to a plant. I am aware of the theory about mushrooms being a sentient being from another planet spreading their lesson, or basically panspermia. It’s fun stuff, perhaps too fun for some minds.

    • echar

      I love you passive aggressive down voter!

    • echar

      I love you passive aggressive down voter!

      • Matt Staggs

        Yeah, I have one who downvotes everything I say. RAGE AGAINST THE MACHINE MAAAAN!

      • Matt Staggs

        Yeah, I have one who downvotes everything I say. RAGE AGAINST THE MACHINE MAAAAN!

        • echar

          I just down voted you, because I can… Take that!

        • echar

          I just down voted you, because I can… Take that!

          • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=742104313 Adam Goodwin

            Me too. ;)

          • Kevin Leonard
          • Matt Staggs

            SWEET JEBUS I was saving all my upvotes to turn in for bitcoins!

          • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=742104313 Adam Goodwin

            Better watch out… bitcoin flash crashed the other day! I wonder if upvotes could be converted into farm equipment…

  • Juan

    Yes, no doubt in my mind that a sufficient dose of entheogens can be transformative in all kinds of ways. They have certainly re-enchanted my life. For that I remain very grateful, and also agnostic as to any definitive ontological position.

  • bubby

    Dumbest fucking thing i’ve ever heard

  • bubby

    Dumbest fucking thing i’ve ever heard

    • Kevin Leonard

      said bubby

    • Kevin Leonard

      said bubby

  • David Howe

    Heroic doses never “cured” my atheism (lol), but I really grooved on the interconnectness of everything. Basically, everything is – like – atoms, man!

    It also reset my empathy chip. There’s still no god, but colors are pretty!

  • David Howe

    Heroic doses never “cured” my atheism (lol), but I really grooved on the interconnectness of everything. Basically, everything is – like – atoms, man!

    It also reset my empathy chip. There’s still no god, but colors are pretty!

  • hamvvar

    Maybe help cure you of ‘ism’s in general.

  • InfvoCuernos

    Once you use the shrooms to “cure” your atheism, then you can use your new found god to cure your homosexuality or any other non-conformist traits you might have-like taking psychoactive drugs to have meaningful experiences.

  • DrDavidKelly

    I dropped my kid’s battery powered toy into the bath. It was a duck that danced and sang ‘splish splash I was taking a bath’ – after it got dunked it sang a very mutated version of the same song. After it dried out it sang the song as always … you see where I’m going with this …

    • jnana

      except consciousness is not a simple battery powered machine and consciousness altering plants don’t simply make it “malfunction”. when the brain is deprived of glucose and the ego is deprived of its food(destructive emotions and such) the SUBSTRATE CAN BE REVEALED.

      • DrDavidKelly

        Yeah it’s like a weird holiday …

  • bobbiethejean

    Yeah because trippin balls is a way better method of discerning the nature of our universe than coming to logical, informed conclusions based on evidence and proof like a mature adult. ;) (Sorry, couldn’t resist.)

    • Calypso_1

      Worked for a number of Noble Prize winning scientists.

      • bobbiethejean

        Yeah…. notice the “Noble Prize winning scientists” part of that equation. I guarantee you, no random idiot off the street ever dropped shrooms then suddenly knew the secrets to the universe.

      • bobbiethejean

        Yeah…. notice the “Noble Prize winning scientists” part of that equation. I guarantee you, no random idiot off the street ever dropped shrooms then suddenly knew the secrets to the universe.

        • Calypso_1

          …I will say this with some deference to your admitted inexperience with these substances.

          ‘It is wrong from beginning to end’

          • bobbiethejean

            Perhaps you’re not understanding my point? So let me make it clear:

            1.) If you give your average dumbass off the street LSD, he’s not going to be like… “Ya know what? I think…. yeah…” *suddenly Differential Calculus.* Not going to happen.

            2.) If you give a genius some LSD, it might help him come to conclusions or see things in a different way and that might be a great tool for him. However, there’s really no way of knowing that he couldn’t have achieved the same exact thing through meditation, dreams, or just getting drunk.

            3.) Regardless of whatever happens on a psychedelic trip, the nature of reality does not change to reflect that. So someone can be “communing with the one true god” in his head but that doesn’t make it true. For all we know there are no gods or many gods or we’re actually a very complicated computer simulation.

            In conclusion: Yes, LSD can be a great tool, I suppose. I can’t really attest to that as I have never tried it. But it’s not magic. You’re not going to take shrooms and suddenly turn into Richard Feynman.

          • bobbiethejean

            Perhaps you’re not understanding my point? So let me make it clear:

            1.) If you give your average dumbass off the street LSD, he’s not going to be like… “Ya know what? I think…. yeah…” *suddenly Differential Calculus.* Not going to happen.

            2.) If you give a genius some LSD, it might help him come to conclusions or see things in a different way and that might be a great tool for him. However, there’s really no way of knowing that he couldn’t have achieved the same exact thing through meditation, dreams, or just getting drunk.

            3.) Regardless of whatever happens on a psychedelic trip, the nature of reality does not change to reflect that. So someone can be “communing with the one true god” in his head but that doesn’t make it true. For all we know there are no gods or many gods or we’re actually a very complicated computer simulation.

            In conclusion: Yes, LSD can be a great tool, I suppose. I can’t really attest to that as I have never tried it. But it’s not magic. You’re not going to take shrooms and suddenly turn into Richard Feynman.

          • Calypso_1

            I promise you i could teach differential calc to the average dumbass on sid better than they could be taught it in the classroom.
            Plus they will have the same visions of molecular & genetic nature that scientists have used to their advantage in this state. That someone does not have the educational background to utilize what they see in no way diminishes the fact that ‘mysteries of the universe’ are being revealed. And this takes absolutley nothing into account of any personal revelations of a psychodynamic nature they may have.

          • bobbiethejean

            You’re still missing my point I’m making. LSD is not a tool for understanding the nature of the universe. If it is, if I am wrong, show me and I will change my mind. As of yet, I see absolutely no evidence that it is necessary or beneficial to understanding how our universe works. I see a LOT of anecdotes and hearsay but I need evidence. I promise you I will spin on a dime and change my mind if I’m wrong.

          • Calypso_1

            Not a tool for understanding the universe……..
            In that case neither is serotonin.
            Without being willing to experience such yourself, you are left only to take the words of others who have had such experience….the majority of which would, i believe, chuckle at your assertion.

            You might want to check Crick’s ‘discovery’ of the helix.

            Or perhaps Sir Albert Hofmann’s thoughts are relevant.
            “I think that in human evolution it has never been as necessary to have this substance LSD. It is just a tool to turn us into what we are.”

          • bobbiethejean

            I’ll tell you the same thing I told the other guy: The universe exists as it exists regardless of whatever rose-colored LSD goggles we might put on.

          • jnana

            the universe exists in the mind. the mind exists in the universe. if ya change the mind, ya change the universe. if ya change the universe, you change the mind.

            this has been known by mystics n magicians for thousands of years. scientists are finally catchin up to this w/ the advent of quantum physics’ theory.

          • jnana

            the universe exists in the mind. the mind exists in the universe. if ya change the mind, ya change the universe. if ya change the universe, you change the mind.

            this has been known by mystics n magicians for thousands of years. scientists are finally catchin up to this w/ the advent of quantum physics’ theory.

          • Andrew

            The universe exists in the mind, yet matter is evil… Interesting.

          • Andrew

            The universe exists in the mind, yet matter is evil… Interesting.

          • Kevin Leonard

            [ears perk up] matter is evil? where did i miss this discussion?

          • Calypso_1

            Is dark matter a higher order canonical projection of evil than luminous mater?
            If so what does this tell us of the Lightbear v. the spirit that moved upon the Abyss?

          • Kevin Leonard

            i do not consider matter to be evil.
            but i assume you are hinting at innate balance in the universe

          • Kevin Leonard

            i do not consider matter to be evil.
            but i assume you are hinting at innate balance in the universe

          • jnana

            The mind was deceived, trapped in delusion and fully believes in the authority of the realm of matter. Through gnosis, one KNOWS the nature of the material cosmos as little more than a dream, MAYA, and its effects have no true substance. When one recognizes one’s own delusion, one’s soul becomes liberated from eternal recurrence. Release from karma and all that.

            I’m not implying I have a fully formed, coherent, rational philosophy. Still some uncertainties, specifically concerning the creation of evil. Is it coeternal with Good, or a corrupted emanation of Good? Its the difference b/w Iranian gnostic cosmogony and Syrian gnostic cosmogony. In some ways, I agree w/ chaos magicians in that belief is a practical tool. So I choose to believe in Hell, because it’s practical. And I believe in the above for the same reasons. That said, Reason and rational philosophy is still important, Reason bein Holy, in my opinion.

            I understand it’s confusing. Read PKD for a more entertaining version of what Im talking about. Personal experience is also important.

          • jnana

            The mind was deceived, trapped in delusion and fully believes in the authority of the realm of matter. Through gnosis, one KNOWS the nature of the material cosmos as little more than a dream, MAYA, and its effects have no true substance. When one recognizes one’s own delusion, one’s soul becomes liberated from eternal recurrence. Release from karma and all that.

            I’m not implying I have a fully formed, coherent, rational philosophy. Still some uncertainties, specifically concerning the creation of evil. Is it coeternal with Good, or a corrupted emanation of Good? Its the difference b/w Iranian gnostic cosmogony and Syrian gnostic cosmogony. In some ways, I agree w/ chaos magicians in that belief is a practical tool. So I choose to believe in Hell, because it’s practical. And I believe in the above for the same reasons. That said, Reason and rational philosophy is still important, Reason bein Holy, in my opinion.

            I understand it’s confusing. Read PKD for a more entertaining version of what Im talking about. Personal experience is also important.

          • Andrew

            I disagree with your first paragraph.

          • Kevin Leonard

            but this doesn’t make matter “evil”
            the error lies in our perception.

          • Kevin Leonard

            but this doesn’t make matter “evil”
            the error lies in our perception.

          • jnana

            matter is the force that occludes perception. when mind is released from its ties with matter(through ego-death), it sees more clearly.
            Matter is the cause of ignorance. Light is the cause of Gnosis.

          • Kevin Leonard

            Matter is what we are blinded to, not what we are blinded by.
            A plow horse sees only what is in front of it because of the blinders,
            not because of the field it is being directed to plow.

          • Kevin Leonard

            Matter is what we are blinded to, not what we are blinded by.
            A plow horse sees only what is in front of it because of the blinders,
            not because of the field it is being directed to plow.

          • Kevin Leonard

            Matter is what we are blinded to, not what we are blinded by.
            A plow horse sees only what is in front of it because of the blinders,
            not because of the field it is being directed to plow.

          • jnana

            What is matter, but nothing new. What does the Tao te Ching say?

            The five colors blind the eyes;

            The five musical notes deafen the ears;

            The five flavors dull the taste.

          • Kevin Leonard

            … Therefore the wise satisfy the inner self rather than external senses.
            They accept the one and reject the other.
            Same chapter.

            Supports my proposition that the error is where we focus our perception.
            It is not the sense objects which are evil, but the fact that we are attached to them.

          • jnana

            And why do the sense objects attract our attention so much? Why are they addictive and clamor for our attention, drowning out the gentle whisper of our mother? Our Spirit was hidden from us and we instinctively strive for reunion. But an imitation was given to us in its place. The imitation is this world. This body and this self.

          • jnana

            And why do the sense objects attract our attention so much? Why are they addictive and clamor for our attention, drowning out the gentle whisper of our mother? Our Spirit was hidden from us and we instinctively strive for reunion. But an imitation was given to us in its place. The imitation is this world. This body and this self.

          • jnana

            And why do the sense objects attract our attention so much? Why are they addictive and clamor for our attention, drowning out the gentle whisper of our mother? Our Spirit was hidden from us and we instinctively strive for reunion. But an imitation was given to us in its place. The imitation is this world. This body and this self.

          • jnana

            And why do the sense objects attract our attention so much? Why are they addictive and clamor for our attention, drowning out the gentle whisper of our mother? Our Spirit was hidden from us and we instinctively strive for reunion. But an imitation was given to us in its place. The imitation is this world. This body and this self.

          • jnana

            And why do the sense objects attract our attention so much? Why are they addictive and clamor for our attention, drowning out the gentle whisper of our mother? Our Spirit was hidden from us and we instinctively strive for reunion. But an imitation was given to us in its place. The imitation is this world. This body and this self.

          • jnana

            And why do the sense objects attract our attention so much? Why are they addictive and clamor for our attention, drowning out the gentle whisper of our mother? Our Spirit was hidden from us and we instinctively strive for reunion. But an imitation was given to us in its place. The imitation is this world. This body and this self.

          • jnana

            And why do the sense objects attract our attention so much? Why are they addictive and clamor for our attention, drowning out the gentle whisper of our mother? Our Spirit was hidden from us and we instinctively strive for reunion. But an imitation was given to us in its place. The imitation is this world. This body and this self.

          • Kevin Leonard

            Well, that would be related to The Fall, now, would it not?
            and we stay addicted because of the infestation of Ahrimanic or Luciferic beings, or the Archons, if you will.

            But that does not make matter evil.

            It is curious that you pay homage to the mother. Surely you know that “mother” and “matter” share the same root word… mater. “Matrix” shares it, as well.

          • Kevin Leonard

            Well, that would be related to The Fall, now, would it not?
            and we stay addicted because of the infestation of Ahrimanic or Luciferic beings, or the Archons, if you will.

            But that does not make matter evil.

            It is curious that you pay homage to the mother. Surely you know that “mother” and “matter” share the same root word… mater. “Matrix” shares it, as well.

          • jnana

            why is the idea that matter is inherently flawed so difficult to accept for so many people, be they atheist, Christian, or any other spiritual tradition? it seems quite logical, to me.

          • jnana

            why is the idea that matter is inherently flawed so difficult to accept for so many people, be they atheist, Christian, or any other spiritual tradition? it seems quite logical, to me.

          • Calypso_1

            The way current multiverse theory stands matter couldn’t even exist or would exist in radically different configurations in most universes than as it does in our own.
            Framed within that context ‘flawed’ just means variable parameters producing a multitude of different symmetries & properties.

          • Kevin Leonard

            Well, that could be because there are other logical ways to think about the nature of matter.

            Similar to the saying, it is the love of money which is the root of evil, not money.
            Why is *that* so difficult to accept? It seems equally logical to me.

            In the Anthroposophical vision, it is our destiny to find a “creative balance between matter and spirit.” It is mater and pater/ matrix and pattern/ mother and father/ yin and yang, balanced, becoming one with the Tao.

          • Kevin Leonard

            Well, that could be because there are other logical ways to think about the nature of matter.

            Similar to the saying, it is the love of money which is the root of evil, not money.
            Why is *that* so difficult to accept? It seems equally logical to me.

            In the Anthroposophical vision, it is our destiny to find a “creative balance between matter and spirit.” It is mater and pater/ matrix and pattern/ mother and father/ yin and yang, balanced, becoming one with the Tao.

          • jnana

            There are several other traditions that regard matter and/or the phenomenal world as an obfuscating force. For example, Shiva renounced Brahma’s creation as imperfect and fraught w/ suffering, so he abdicated his roles as Destroyer in the Divine plan and went to the forests to contemplate. I also think it is fairly apparent that the Buddha regarded the world as an obfuscating force. And that is because of Desire which is intrinsically linked with Matter.

            Why is there even the possibility of imbalance? Jesus said, “He who has discovered the world has discovered a carcass. He who has discovered the carcass, the world is not worthy of.” I don’t mean to be condescending, but I think Matter and Spirit are enemies, not partners. If I observe matter, with an open mind, I detest it. It shares qualities of the Good, and I am open to the possibility its not wholly evil or malicious. Matter may also be redeemed, in fact, I think the physical resurrection is very possible, unlike most gnostics.

            What I was implying with the above question, is I believe few people are willing to really face the possibility that this material cosmos is an enemy and not a friend. If you get the chance watch the movie “The Truman Show”, I believe it expresses a very good understanding of this world.

            There is a saying in the Gospel of Philip that sums up the attitude I believe should be held. ‘You should neither love the flesh nor fear it’

          • jnana

            There are several other traditions that regard matter and/or the phenomenal world as an obfuscating force. For example, Shiva renounced Brahma’s creation as imperfect and fraught w/ suffering, so he abdicated his roles as Destroyer in the Divine plan and went to the forests to contemplate. I also think it is fairly apparent that the Buddha regarded the world as an obfuscating force. And that is because of Desire which is intrinsically linked with Matter.

            Why is there even the possibility of imbalance? Jesus said, “He who has discovered the world has discovered a carcass. He who has discovered the carcass, the world is not worthy of.” I don’t mean to be condescending, but I think Matter and Spirit are enemies, not partners. If I observe matter, with an open mind, I detest it. It shares qualities of the Good, and I am open to the possibility its not wholly evil or malicious. Matter may also be redeemed, in fact, I think the physical resurrection is very possible, unlike most gnostics.

            What I was implying with the above question, is I believe few people are willing to really face the possibility that this material cosmos is an enemy and not a friend. If you get the chance watch the movie “The Truman Show”, I believe it expresses a very good understanding of this world.

            There is a saying in the Gospel of Philip that sums up the attitude I believe should be held. ‘You should neither love the flesh nor fear it’

          • Kevin Leonard

            I certainly think Philip’s is the right attitude. Realize, though, that “fear” and “detest” are on the same end of the consciousness spectrum.

            You must also realize that Jesus and the authors of the Vedas were generally speaking to unenlightened and uneducated men. For those that have discovered the world and identify their being with what is really just a carcass, such a message as you are relaying is more relevant.

            “Why is there even the possibility of imbalance?”
            So that we may exercise our free will (in His image).

            One simplified model of subtle bodies consists of four parts: the physical, the etheric (qi/prana), the astral (mental and emotional processes), and the Spiritual – each successively more and more rarified. If the physical is evil, so must be the etheric, the astral, and those upper currents that host deities, but which nonetheless are not completely of God/ Source/ Oneness/ Tao.

            Our destiny (according to Anthroposophy and others) is to hold awareness in Spirit while living on the other planes. Our current cosmological cycle is dominantly focused on transcending the astral. Once we have completely presenced Spirit into the astral, as a species, we become homo angelicus. The next evolution is when we have fully presenced Spirit into the etheric, where we become immortal beings similar to Babaji, able to incarnate in and out of the physical at will. The final evolution for our species is to presence Spirit into matter (matter’s redemption), when it is said we will be able to control external material reality as readily as we control our thoughts.

            I absolutely agree with you that none of this will happen if we remain blind to the other levels. But I again assert that it is not matter which makes us blind. It is our lack of vision. Physically blind people do not blame the darkness, that is just all that they see. The extreme majority of our planet is blind to the etheric, the astral and to Spirit. I would further contend that most people who speak of Spirit speak of it in the same manner that physically blind people speak of colors, they can use descriptors, but they just haven’t experienced it. (How do you describe color to a blind person?)

            We are so far removed from Spirit, that people go to a Reiki practitioner and get their consciousness slightly dislodged from their body and think that they are having a Spiritual experience with a capital “S” – or – and this may ruffle some feathers in this thread – they take some mushrooms and get completely absorbed in the astral realm for a few hours and come back thinking they are Jesus (happened to me once). None of that is Spirit. But it is still valuable as it unshackles our minds from the physical. And certainly that is a move in the right direction and Spirit does descend from time to time during those events.

            In this view, it is not the matter which is evil, but that which makes us believe that matter is all that matters. Consider that it has been the process of diving deeply into matter (via quantum physics) that has proven that the Vedas were justified when they called the world “Maya.”

          • Kevin Leonard

            I certainly think Philip’s is the right attitude. Realize, though, that “fear” and “detest” are on the same end of the consciousness spectrum.

            You must also realize that Jesus and the authors of the Vedas were generally speaking to unenlightened and uneducated men. For those that have discovered the world and identify their being with what is really just a carcass, such a message as you are relaying is more relevant.

            “Why is there even the possibility of imbalance?”
            So that we may exercise our free will (in His image).

            One simplified model of subtle bodies consists of four parts: the physical, the etheric (qi/prana), the astral (mental and emotional processes), and the Spiritual – each successively more and more rarified. If the physical is evil, so must be the etheric, the astral, and those upper currents that host deities, but which nonetheless are not completely of God/ Source/ Oneness/ Tao.

            Our destiny (according to Anthroposophy and others) is to hold awareness in Spirit while living on the other planes. Our current cosmological cycle is dominantly focused on transcending the astral. Once we have completely presenced Spirit into the astral, as a species, we become homo angelicus. The next evolution is when we have fully presenced Spirit into the etheric, where we become immortal beings similar to Babaji, able to incarnate in and out of the physical at will. The final evolution for our species is to presence Spirit into matter (matter’s redemption), when it is said we will be able to control external material reality as readily as we control our thoughts.

            I absolutely agree with you that none of this will happen if we remain blind to the other levels. But I again assert that it is not matter which makes us blind. It is our lack of vision. Physically blind people do not blame the darkness, that is just all that they see. The extreme majority of our planet is blind to the etheric, the astral and to Spirit. I would further contend that most people who speak of Spirit speak of it in the same manner that physically blind people speak of colors, they can use descriptors, but they just haven’t experienced it. (How do you describe color to a blind person?)

            We are so far removed from Spirit, that people go to a Reiki practitioner and get their consciousness slightly dislodged from their body and think that they are having a Spiritual experience with a capital “S” – or – and this may ruffle some feathers in this thread – they take some mushrooms and get completely absorbed in the astral realm for a few hours and come back thinking they are Jesus (happened to me once). None of that is Spirit. But it is still valuable as it unshackles our minds from the physical. And certainly that is a move in the right direction and Spirit does descend from time to time during those events.

            In this view, it is not the matter which is evil, but that which makes us believe that matter is all that matters. Consider that it has been the process of diving deeply into matter (via quantum physics) that has proven that the Vedas were justified when they called the world “Maya.”

          • jnana

            Free Will is a crock, in my opinion.

            I must suffer and I must make others suffer. I can do my best to lessen this, perhaps become a Jain, and work real hard, but suffering is still inevitable. And why must we exert so much effort to be “Realized” and not suffer. If I was God, I’d give Joy as a Gift, and I’m made in HIs Image.

          • Calypso_1

            I exerted free will today. I suffered to do it. Ultimately however it served to lessen my own future suffering & that of another. Or truth be told simply provided an ameliorated suffering scale over time allowing for mutual growth & a withdrawal from more intense pain & breakage. Free will or complex dynamic feedback system with emergent self-regulatory properties? I think just Will. Still had to pay a price.

          • jnana

            I often ask people, suppose the creator is a sadist, who feels a bit sorry for his sadistic impulses. The epitome of irrationality and chaos(Yaldabaoth means Son of Chaos, perhaps)

            Well, he(or they) plays w/ us as a cat with a mouse. Then wipes all memory of suffering and grants bliss. Perhaps he creates individuals just to torment them. Each individual is eventuall granted bliss w/ no memory of pain. This can go on infinitely.

            Would it be Just? Would He be worthy of worship, adoration or love?

          • Kevin Leonard

            Curious.
            Of course, having an opinion is an expression of free will, albeit a lesser one.

            You must make others suffer? Must? How so?

            One thing I can see clearly in your remarks, is that you still possess an exoteric view of Will. It is not about “working real hard” or “exerting so much effort.” That is little “w” will, coming from the little ego. Big “W” Will is a force. It is Might, itself. It is something to rest on. And without the counter balancing force of Grace, it would rip our being to shreds. But most of us do not possess Will. I do not.

            Your last statement is you making god in your image.

            Calypso_1’s comment just came in so I will tag this on:
            [note capitalizations] When we tap into Will, bits of our ego are destroyed, or at least subjegated (often experienced as suffering), allowing the Ego to shine through and operate for the highest good.

            Now here is something that I consider one of the greatest Mysteries regarding why we suffer. All of our suffering has its root in The Fall. If only we would return to G-o-d, our suffering would end. So why not return? We are ashamed and we hate G-o-d. We hate H-i-m for making us live in this world. We are ashamed that we have turned our back on H-i-m, and furthermore, that we do it daily. This is one of the reasons why moments in The Great Light are often accompanied by so many tears.

          • Kevin Leonard

            Curious.
            Of course, having an opinion is an expression of free will, albeit a lesser one.

            You must make others suffer? Must? How so?

            One thing I can see clearly in your remarks, is that you still possess an exoteric view of Will. It is not about “working real hard” or “exerting so much effort.” That is little “w” will, coming from the little ego. Big “W” Will is a force. It is Might, itself. It is something to rest on. And without the counter balancing force of Grace, it would rip our being to shreds. But most of us do not possess Will. I do not.

            Your last statement is you making god in your image.

            Calypso_1’s comment just came in so I will tag this on:
            [note capitalizations] When we tap into Will, bits of our ego are destroyed, or at least subjegated (often experienced as suffering), allowing the Ego to shine through and operate for the highest good.

            Now here is something that I consider one of the greatest Mysteries regarding why we suffer. All of our suffering has its root in The Fall. If only we would return to G-o-d, our suffering would end. So why not return? We are ashamed and we hate G-o-d. We hate H-i-m for making us live in this world. We are ashamed that we have turned our back on H-i-m, and furthermore, that we do it daily. This is one of the reasons why moments in The Great Light are often accompanied by so many tears.

          • jnana

            I don’t believe it was God’s intention that we suffer torment here, and its a sense of Justice and Mercy that He gave me which causes me to detest this creation. The Good God isn’t irrational but the gods are. I believe we were kidnapped, and in need of ransom. Or perhaps its as written in The Hymn of the Pearl.

            As for free will, I tend towards the gnostic conception of Heimarmene, that is Fate, Necessity, Destiny. It is a ruse created by the Archons, it is Law. My only Will is for Infinite Bliss for one and all, and in this universe that intention is thwarted by Necessity. Could this occur another time? Why shouldn’t it occur for all of Time.

            Time is the devil’s bubble.

          • jnana

            I don’t believe it was God’s intention that we suffer torment here, and its a sense of Justice and Mercy that He gave me which causes me to detest this creation. The Good God isn’t irrational but the gods are. I believe we were kidnapped, and in need of ransom. Or perhaps its as written in The Hymn of the Pearl.

            As for free will, I tend towards the gnostic conception of Heimarmene, that is Fate, Necessity, Destiny. It is a ruse created by the Archons, it is Law. My only Will is for Infinite Bliss for one and all, and in this universe that intention is thwarted by Necessity. Could this occur another time? Why shouldn’t it occur for all of Time.

            Time is the devil’s bubble.

          • Kevin Leonard

            “Could this occur another time? Why shouldn’t it occur for all of Time.”

            Indeed. What is the problem? How do we overcome it?

          • jnana

            Problem? Ignorance. Of who we are, where we came from, where we’re going, what is birth, and what is rebirth.

            Solution? Knowledge.
            That’s my guess, at least.

          • Kevin Leonard

            Ignorance of what?
            and how do we come to know what we do not know?

            I’m not playing games with you,
            I’m just trying to draw out a logical progression.

          • jnana

            I think it was Clement who claimed the gnosis that liberates is of who we are, where we came from, where we’re going, what is birth, and what is rebirth.
            Seek and you will find. Knock and it shall be opened. Ask and you will receive.
            Maybe Jesus IS in peyote as some native Americans believe.
            He does say some demons only come out w/ prayer and fasting. Also says we gotta fast from the world if we want to enter the Kingdom.
            An important practice for me is Observation. Observe the Manifest, but also Observe the Unmanifest, which may be paradoxical, but it seems to liberate a lot of energy.

          • jnana

            I think it was Clement who claimed the gnosis that liberates is of who we are, where we came from, where we’re going, what is birth, and what is rebirth.
            Seek and you will find. Knock and it shall be opened. Ask and you will receive.
            Maybe Jesus IS in peyote as some native Americans believe.
            He does say some demons only come out w/ prayer and fasting. Also says we gotta fast from the world if we want to enter the Kingdom.
            An important practice for me is Observation. Observe the Manifest, but also Observe the Unmanifest, which may be paradoxical, but it seems to liberate a lot of energy.

          • Kevin Leonard

            But how do we obtain gnosis?
            seeking? knocking? asking?
            have you not been doing these things?

            fasting, praying, observing?
            has it been enough?

            haven’t these precepts been with us for centuries, if not millennia?
            why haven’t we overcome?

          • jnana

            Well, I have been growin by leaps and bounds the past few years, but get lazy and not quite so mindful at times, especially lately. I have had a lot of answered prayer and am waiting on a lot more. But I do get to enjoy resting in God.

            Reminds me of a saying by Jesus in the G. of Thomas I resonate w/.

            ,Jesus said, “If they say to you (plur.), ‘Where are you from?’ say to them, ‘It is from light that we have come – from the place where light, of its own accord alone, came into existence and [stood at rest]. And it has been shown forth in their image.’ If they say to you, ‘Is it you?’ say ‘We are its offspring, and we are the chosen of the living father.’ If they ask you, ‘What is the sign of your father within you?’ say to them, ‘It is MOVEMENT and REST.'”

          • Kevin Leonard

            Yes. That is all good. And so were your other responses.
            But to bring it back around to the thrust of my argument…
            to “get lazy and not quite so mindful at times” is symptom of undeveloped Will.

            Free Will is not choosing vanilla over chocolate. It is choosing one set of dogmas or teachings over another. It is holding steadfast to a path. Vigilantly. It is something that exceedingly few are capable of. I have only met one individual whom I think had fully embodied Will – Will from the larger self and not the smaller ego that struggles.

            ALL of the methods that you have outlined to attain Gnosis require a steadfast Will.

            Edit: it is *not choosing one set of dogmas or teachings over another.

          • jnana

            … or perhaps Pure Intention or Undivided Intention

          • Kevin Leonard

            yes.
            I am saying that cannot be done without Will.
            how else?

            *please note my correction above

          • Kevin Leonard

            yes.
            I am saying that cannot be done without Will.
            how else?

            *please note my correction above

          • Calypso_1

            Imbalance in any given dimension is simply a ratio that produces variance as either linear or non-linear dynamics depending on the presence of equilibrium. When ratios exist at nodal points within a given dimension’s equilibrium states you have resonance. The resonance patterns jump in a series that are periodic though non-locally coupled to its resident dimension (as seen in the progression of harmonic modes in cymatics) having relationships to higher dimensions.

            This can be seen in simple demonstration of geometric objects, such as a hexagon being a two dimensional representation of a three dimensional cube or the 4-D hypercube imbedded within the 2-D octagon. These relationships stream into increasing
            complexity of geometries & topologies and are fundamental in understanding matter
            & space.

            Thus when ‘imbalance’ occurs in any given dimension it is simply so that variance occurs within that dimension through changes in relationships. Those relationships also have complex nodal points that maintain various entropic states & cycles.

            When certain ratios are balanced, variance can no longer occur within a given system. In purely mathematical expression that system can only move
            into higher-dimension. Once it does so it takes on degrees of freedom that have
            there own possibilities of ‘imbalance’ – ad infinitum.

          • jnana

            I don’t quite grasp it. Seems what yer saying is a dimension above me. I think I need to balance my ratios.

            What you say reminds me of the different dimensions of the Tree of Life or Olamot. How Malkut can be Keter in another dimension.

            My issue is why even the possibility of evil in existence? Why even put the Tree of Knowledge of Good n Evil in Paradise? Seems irrational, to me. (Please don’t exclaim Free Will!)

          • Calypso_1

            I am trying to distill in words & image some of the mathematical truth that has been discovered about our universe. Much of the Kabbalah & such were also early attempts at this.

            Primarily, I was simply offering the idea that ‘imbalance’ is an inherent dynamic in any dimension, therefore offering a perspective removed from it being something ‘wrong’ it just is.

            Some ‘imbalances’ or better yet ‘ratio’s ‘work’ better than others, they have equilibrium states that produce stable forms & properties. Does this make them when they exist within matter as imperfect? They exist in energy as well. I see it as wondrous & different. Matter in our universes form as it exists will (such as we know) fail: entropy.

            Where one can see the imperfect, one can also see the cyclic, the unfolding, the pattern, chaos, oblivion, momentary, singular, reflective, illusory, vector of origin/destination.
            Of the origin (perfection?) – Those representations of symmetry, nodes of some higher alignment.
            They also become death in their own dimension or purely symbolic in that they are only shadows of a dynamic structure within a higher order. Perfection is stagnant. Completion carries with it formation and process & within that the promise of other forms.

          • Kevin Leonard

            God is irrational
            as pi is irrational

            Images of wheels within wheels
            above/ below

            I wish I had the maths.

          • jnana

            Is a world w/o imbalance possible. A perfect world of infinite growth, infinite diversity, Infinity, and no ‘imbalance’.
            Impossible? Or just not anything in the manifest universe. Hidden, perhaps, and as Heraclitus said, the hidden is master of the manifest.

          • jnana

            Purty Pictures
            ;)

          • Andrew

            Light and matter are related. E = mc2.

            What is your interpretation of dark matter? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dark_matter

          • jnana

            if yer interested in a good essay on an original thought provoking gnostic cosmogony here’s PKD’s Cosmogony and Cosmology: http://montalk.net/cosmogony.html

            I would say Matter is a corrupted form of light, perhaps light slowed down enough to be arranged by a being or beings, including us. Light is pure consciousness. The light we see and what science calls light, is not necessarily what I mean by “Light”, but is more a symbol, or representation, of Light. Light is also Sound is also Name.

            Dark Matter is perhaps Chaos, the nature of Matter, before the Spirit blew upon the deep, before the Logos arranged chaos by reason. The Demiurge believes he is the “Mighty Rearranger”, but his plans are subverted by Jesus the Logos. read the /gnostic story of genesis, perhaps best described in the scripture “The Reality of the Rulers” http://www.gnosis.org/naghamm/hypostas.html

            Matter or the Lord of Matter is sometimes described by gnostics as an abortion of Sophia. She had the impulse or intention to create, in imitation and/or honor of the Creator of the Pleroma. But she did this without her consort(who is the aeon Christos) and without consent, and therefore she emitted a monstrosity, which she immediately tried to hide from the Pleroma by a veil or shadow. This monstrosity is matter or the lord of matter, which she called Yaldabaoth(affectionately gnown by modern gnostics as Yaldy-baldy). She felt bad for him, I guess, and blew the spirit of Life into him. Seeing the vast expanse of matter before him, he then declared, in a state of hubris and/or ignorance “I am God and there are no other gods before me”, which Sophia replied with, “You are wrong, Samael”(which means God of the Blind). As she did this she looked down through the veil and introduced a spark of light. He looked up to see her, and was immediately enamored of her beauty and decided to create in imitation.
            An interesting myth, that is really onto something. The gnostics practiced inspired speculation on the nature of the kenoma and pleroma, and thought it important to create their own myths. I don’t believe it means these myths aren’t real, though, unlike most modern gnostics.

          • jnana

            if yer interested in a good essay on an original thought provoking gnostic cosmogony here’s PKD’s Cosmogony and Cosmology: http://montalk.net/cosmogony.html

            I would say Matter is a corrupted form of light, perhaps light slowed down enough to be arranged by a being or beings, including us. Light is pure consciousness. The light we see and what science calls light, is not necessarily what I mean by “Light”, but is more a symbol, or representation, of Light. Light is also Sound is also Name.

            Dark Matter is perhaps Chaos, the nature of Matter, before the Spirit blew upon the deep, before the Logos arranged chaos by reason. The Demiurge believes he is the “Mighty Rearranger”, but his plans are subverted by Jesus the Logos. read the /gnostic story of genesis, perhaps best described in the scripture “The Reality of the Rulers” http://www.gnosis.org/naghamm/hypostas.html

            Matter or the Lord of Matter is sometimes described by gnostics as an abortion of Sophia. She had the impulse or intention to create, in imitation and/or honor of the Creator of the Pleroma. But she did this without her consort(who is the aeon Christos) and without consent, and therefore she emitted a monstrosity, which she immediately tried to hide from the Pleroma by a veil or shadow. This monstrosity is matter or the lord of matter, which she called Yaldabaoth(affectionately gnown by modern gnostics as Yaldy-baldy). She felt bad for him, I guess, and blew the spirit of Life into him. Seeing the vast expanse of matter before him, he then declared, in a state of hubris and/or ignorance “I am God and there are no other gods before me”, which Sophia replied with, “You are wrong, Samael”(which means God of the Blind). As she did this she looked down through the veil and introduced a spark of light. He looked up to see her, and was immediately enamored of her beauty and decided to create in imitation.
            An interesting myth, that is really onto something. The gnostics practiced inspired speculation on the nature of the kenoma and pleroma, and thought it important to create their own myths. I don’t believe it means these myths aren’t real, though, unlike most modern gnostics.

          • Andrew

            I believe those myths are unreal, and that reifying myths leads to unclear philosophy–what Alfred North Whitehead called the fallacy of misplaced concreteness. If one wants to base their philosophy on thoughts rather than empiricism, one better have clear and distinct ideas and avoid equivocation and appeals to emotion. And I think it’s always a mistake to judge facts by what our hearts (Jeremiah 17:9) tell us.

          • Kevin Leonard

            That is not precisely what Jeremiah tells us.
            In 17:5, we have “Thus said the LORD; Cursed be the man that trusts in man, and makes flesh his arm, and whose heart departs from the LORD.” In context, the heart in 17:9 is not the righteous heart, but one that is ruled by normal human emotions/ desires. There are many variant words in Hebrew that translate simply to “heart” in English.

            http://barrynewman.wordpress.com/2010/02/26/the-heart-part-ii/

            Also from Newman, here are all of the variants and subcategories of “heart” that are more precise in Hebrew, but which simply get translated to “heart” in English:

            fearful, happy, sorrowful, hateful, angry, internally active, desiring, planning, speaking, deciding, remembering/forgetting, reflecting, concentrating, acting as conscience, Knowing the H, the H can be searched/tried, opening or not opening the, God knows what is in the H, the H knowing within itself, The H able to contain or receive, matters being in or on the, to take to H, not to take to, The unrighteous, hardened/stubborn/stony, proud/lifted up, evil.

            So I wonder which one is being referred to in Jeremiah 17:9?
            According to Strong’s Hebrew concordance, it occurs precisely one time.
            http://biblesuite.com/hebrew/hallev_3820.htm

          • Kevin Leonard

            That is not precisely what Jeremiah tells us.
            In 17:5, we have “Thus said the LORD; Cursed be the man that trusts in man, and makes flesh his arm, and whose heart departs from the LORD.” In context, the heart in 17:9 is not the righteous heart, but one that is ruled by normal human emotions/ desires. There are many variant words in Hebrew that translate simply to “heart” in English.

            http://barrynewman.wordpress.com/2010/02/26/the-heart-part-ii/

            Also from Newman, here are all of the variants and subcategories of “heart” that are more precise in Hebrew, but which simply get translated to “heart” in English:

            fearful, happy, sorrowful, hateful, angry, internally active, desiring, planning, speaking, deciding, remembering/forgetting, reflecting, concentrating, acting as conscience, Knowing the H, the H can be searched/tried, opening or not opening the, God knows what is in the H, the H knowing within itself, The H able to contain or receive, matters being in or on the, to take to H, not to take to, The unrighteous, hardened/stubborn/stony, proud/lifted up, evil.

            So I wonder which one is being referred to in Jeremiah 17:9?
            According to Strong’s Hebrew concordance, it occurs precisely one time.
            http://biblesuite.com/hebrew/hallev_3820.htm

          • jnana

            Reality is a Myth.
            Myth is Reality.

            I’m not sure what you mean by “appeals to emotion”. Cause I’m not trying to proselytize or propagandize. If ya don’t get it, then you don’t get it. Nor am I trying to “judge facts”. I am in no position to judge anything. We see through a mirror, darkly. One day we will know, just as surely as we are known.

            What I am doing is feeling my way through the dark to reach the light. As a buried seed rises from the dirt.

          • Andrew

            I don’t thinks it’s as much a matter of my not getting it as it is that I agree with you far more in a symbolic sense than I do in a literal sense. But I am feeling my way through the dirt as well.

          • Calypso_1

            What trimester was Sophia’s abortion? Are there any reliquaries of the placenta? My beard loves placentas.

          • jnana

            I think it was 2nd trimester. Not sure if the placenta’s still around, but the rain is Sophia’s(Achamoth’s) tears.

          • jnana

            I think it was 2nd trimester. Not sure if the placenta’s still around, but the rain is Sophia’s(Achamoth’s) tears.

          • Calypso_1

            She would have buried it. Must find.

          • Andrew

            The universe exists in the mind, yet matter is evil… Interesting.

          • bobbiethejean

            I’m not going to waste my time arguing with you. You are ridiculous.

          • jnana

            What if the fabric of reality had more loose ends and less knots than you’ve assumed? Isn’t this what quantum physics been showin us, y’know about the nature of photons, observer effects on experiments and all that jazz. Reality is plastic, not concrete. I do believe the Hidden Reality is unchanging, but just not the Manifest.

          • jnana

            What if the fabric of reality had more loose ends and less knots than you’ve assumed? Isn’t this what quantum physics been showin us, y’know about the nature of photons, observer effects on experiments and all that jazz. Reality is plastic, not concrete. I do believe the Hidden Reality is unchanging, but just not the Manifest.

          • Calypso_1

            But the universe does not exist without psychedelics. They are as real as any other form of molecular structure that has evolved. To preclude even the concept that our CNS is a mechanism capable of substitutive versatility as a molecular processor goes against the very tenets of biochemical evolution.

          • Andrew

            LSD is a tool for psychology, but not ontology?

          • Andrew

            LSD is a tool for psychology, but not ontology?

          • bobbiethejean

            The universe exists as it exists regardless of whatever rose-colored LSD goggles we might put on.

          • Calypso_1

            The universe exists whether or not we burn out our eyes with lye.

          • bobbiethejean

            The universe exists as it exists regardless of whatever rose-colored LSD goggles we might put on.

          • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=742104313 Adam Goodwin

            But psychology IS ontology. ;)

          • Andrew

            You got that backwards.

          • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=742104313 Adam Goodwin

            Not in my universe, bub. 8)

          • Calypso_1

            What would constitute evidence to you?

          • bobbiethejean

            Just show me how psychedelics consistently and predictably contribute to humanity’s understanding of how the universe works. My contention is that it does not in any significant way. You’ll notice that anyone who has ever used psychedelics and come to some amazing realization already had the ability to come to that realization anyway.

            Don’t get me wrong. I’m not saying psychedelics have no use ever. I’m not even saying psychedelics haven’t contributed in some way. I’m sure they have. What I AM saying is that taking shrooms doesn’t really seem to imbue people with knowledge of confirmation bias, cognitive dissonance, the null hypothesis, or the scientific method. Psychedelics don’t increase your IQ. They don’t suddenly make non-critical thinkers become critical thinkers. You’re not suddenly going to be granted Stephen Hawking’s understanding of space, time, gravity, and so on by dropping acid. When you do that, you’re just making yourself “feel things.” Feeling things is nice, I’m sure, and maybe even helpful to someone who is already very intelligent anyway, but dropping acid won’t reveal any profound truths of quantum physics to someone who couldn’t already think on that level on their own.

            I’m not against psychedelic at all. And again, I’m not really saying that it can’t be useful in anyway ever. All I’m saying is that…… dropping acid… probably not as effective a way of figuring things out as say….. reading a book, getting an education, chatting up a scientist, or whatever else.

          • Calypso_1

            There are some reasonable questions here. There is also some hyperbole – ie transformation into hawkingesque minds. There is a great deal to address about the nature of mind, the sensorium, various human mental faculties, what they are & how they develope and are acquired..
            Give me a little time. I will put together a response for you that is hopefully well founded enough to introduce a different perspective.

          • drokhole

            Hi, bobbiethejean. I had a pretty lengthy response ready for another one of your posts, but I’m just going to keep it simple. Here are two essays that I would recommend you read:

            “Drugs and Mysticism” by Walter Pahnke
            http://www.druglibrary.org/schaffer/lsd/pahnke.htm

            “Psychedelics and Religious Experience” by Alan Watts
            http://deoxy.org/w_psyrel.htm

            The first one is by a pioneer of early psychedelic research (before it was shut down 50 years ago) and outlines his psilocybin study (what was later dubbed the “Good Friday” experiment) along with the key characteristics of the experience, the second by a well-read philosopher (and experiencer) on the subject which also hits on/clarifies some of those key characteristics.

            Here’s another long-read that details another early experiment, this one focusing on creativity/problem solving featuring architects, mathematicians, engineers, and scientists from other fields (all of them bringing in problems on their professional plates that had been racking their brains for months):

            The Heretic
            http://www.themorningnews.org/article/the-heretic

            From the article:

            “But here’s the clincher. After their 5HT2A neural receptors simmered down, they remained firm: LSD absolutely had helped them solve their complex, seemingly intractable problems. And the establishment agreed. The 26 men unleashed a slew of widely embraced innovations shortly after their LSD experiences, including a mathematical theorem for NOR gate circuits, a conceptual model of a photon, a linear electron accelerator beam-steering device, a new design for the vibratory microtome, a technical improvement of the magnetic tape recorder, blueprints for a private residency and an arts-and-crafts shopping plaza, and a space probe experiment designed to measure solar properties. Fadiman and his colleagues published these jaw-dropping results and closed shop.”

            (This as a response to your “All I’m saying is that…… dropping acid… probably not as effective a way of figuring things out…)

            So, intent plays a significant role (along with preparation, dosage, setting, guidance, personality of subject, etc…), but that’s not to say that technical problem solving and a wordless “knowingness” of a larger reality are cleanly demarcated/mutually exclusive during these experiences. One of the participants of that study had this to say:

            “I withdrew for a moment and thought about this rare phenomenon. Again laughter tumbled from the depths of my being. I was trying to do the impossible, to stand back and intellectualize about the most integral thought I had ever experienced…Being transcending the sum of its parts….”

            Another:

            “I encountered an amazing presence, and felt a complete sense of the perfection in everything.”

            Since this is starting to rival that last comment in length, I’ll just wrap it up in say this: it doesn’t seem to me that you are well read on the literature in regards to the subject, so please do some reading. Especially since it’s clear that you don’t plan on undergoing the experience yourself any time soon. The caveat being, as Ray Jordan Jr. points out in his paper “LSD and Mystical Experiences”:

            “One cannot hope really to understand their verbal and symbolic reports unless he also had a similar experience.”

            So, short of that, I’m trying to make it easy for you to find some clear headed and well-rounded takes from people who have not only experienced it themselves, but have conducted some of the only experiments on it (with carefully measured parameters and everything…until, again, it was banned and put on moratorium). In fact, after those papers/essays, I’d recommend starting with a book/anthology edited together by John White called “The Highest State of Consciousness”. It features a few of those papers I mentioned here, plus a ton of others (all mentioned in the first/top Amazon review):

            The Highest State of Consciousness
            http://www.amazon.com/Highest-State-Consciousness-John-White/dp/1908733314

          • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=742104313 Adam Goodwin

            But what’s at the heart of the matter here–the evidence or how it’s evaluated? Evidence is everywhere. Evidence is everything. The way you _evaluate_ that evidence (in other words, give it meaning) happens only inside of you. Singling out causality to be If A, then B is not how scientific discovery is done. There has to be something new added to ‘evidence’ to give room for a more sophisticated understanding of reality. That’s how scientific knowledge is advanced. So where does that something new come from? It doesn’t come from the external world–it comes from your own mind, Bobbie the Jean. That’s why shrooms (among a select other mind-altering substances) are important–it helps you discover the internal, rather than pour over more of the external.

          • Rek Init

            You wanna spin your dime and change your mind? Smoke N,N-DMT. Take a heroic dose of LSD or psilocybin mushrooms at the recommended dose that Terence McKenna advocated. You will be astonished when you suddenly discover the obvious.

          • Rek Init

            It doesn’t necessarily work that way. You keep using phrases like, “It’s not going to instantly make you Einstein or Richard Feynman.” No, it’s not. But instead, what it does is gives you a full-spectrum experience of consciousness of which you cannot fathom in an ordinary state of consciousness, a kind of “higher consciousness,” if you will. In my opinion, this sort of stuff is beyond Einstein.

            It’s quite akin to being struck by metaphysical lightning, metaphorically (and literally), in a sense, and then you see the full-spectrum of consciousness without necessarily asking for it, but it’s sort of forced upon you after imbibing a heroic dose of psychedelics. It arrives in the form of profound intuition rather than something “intellectual.” In other words, it’s not something conceptual. It seems to transcend concepts by its very nature. It’s the ol’, “If you have to ask, you’ll never know” sort of shtick. Contemporarily, this experience is often referred to as “ego death.” Richard M. Bucke has called it ‘cosmic consciousness,’ but nevertheless, it is a phenomenon in consciousness that we all have the potential for, and most people (atheists and theists alike) have no idea that it exist.

          • Andrew

            What is wrong?

          • Andrew

            What is wrong?

          • Calypso_1

            That is a question I often ask myself.

          • Andrew

            Do you ever answer?

          • Andrew

            Do you ever answer?

          • Calypso_1

            Usually it is my beard that does.
            Prickly beast, bristling & baleful.
            Took up a mind of it’s own after reading about ‘The Beard of the Long Face’ & the Multitudinous Parts of the Beard of Macroprosopus….. The head of a thousand worlds, sacred seals within seals & all that rot.
            So after suitable holy oil & alchemical ambergris to soothe it’s ails, ready to pontificate it is. Pretensions of soothsaying & pogonomancy aside, the sagacity of the senex assembles before it the host of alters & subalterns to make query of what needs be met, having no doubt been abandoned for some dissassociative mental matrix of my own making.
            As to what goes wrong in said matrices, one must pass through a hierarchy of aforementioned alters to access.
            But of note I find most problems in this realm are a matter of crypsis & confusion – not of conjecture. Thus a modulation of perception establishes a proper basis for reorienting any dissonance.

          • Calypso_1

            Usually it is my beard that does.
            Prickly beast, bristling & baleful.
            Took up a mind of it’s own after reading about ‘The Beard of the Long Face’ & the Multitudinous Parts of the Beard of Macroprosopus….. The head of a thousand worlds, sacred seals within seals & all that rot.
            So after suitable holy oil & alchemical ambergris to soothe it’s ails, ready to pontificate it is. Pretensions of soothsaying & pogonomancy aside, the sagacity of the senex assembles before it the host of alters & subalterns to make query of what needs be met, having no doubt been abandoned for some dissassociative mental matrix of my own making.
            As to what goes wrong in said matrices, one must pass through a hierarchy of aforementioned alters to access.
            But of note I find most problems in this realm are a matter of crypsis & confusion – not of conjecture. Thus a modulation of perception establishes a proper basis for reorienting any dissonance.

  • http://twitter.com/jiggawutt jiggawutt

    I CANNOT DISAGREE MORE. I have taken multiple “heroic dose” trips and I would say it hastened my turn towards atheism. Nothing makes you more jaded towards spiritualist nonsense when you have seen the spirits and know that they are and are full of shit.

  • echar

    This song belongs here

    Camper Can Beethoven – Too High For The Love-In

    http://grooveshark.com/s/Too+High+For+The+Love+In/4zNGqD?src=5

  • MadHierophant

    Locating BobbieTheJean…

    …Target locked. Article posted.

  • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1207487772 Fritz Cat

    maybe while you are tripping. for me, if it happens, this effect is no different than identifying with a character in a movie while the movie is still rolling. i am currently an agnostic, before i had ever taken psychedelics i was full of religious ideations.

  • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1207487772 Fritz Cat

    maybe while you are tripping. for me, if it happens, this effect is no different than identifying with a character in a movie while the movie is still rolling. i am currently an agnostic, before i had ever taken psychedelics i was full of religious ideations.

  • Zampano Poniatovii

    A sufficient dose of Iboga “cured” me of theism years ago. I finally understood that the universe is a giant experience simulator created by aliens to babysit alien offspring.

    • jnana

      or is that just what they want you to think…

      • Zampano Poniatovii

        It’s probably EXACTLY what the clockwork elves wanted me to think, those little bastards…

        • jnana

          then they weigh our organs after death to judge how well we took care of ourselves, meting out rewards or punishments accordingly, or perhaps they determine our professions and position in alien society accordingly.

          so don’t ruin yer liver by drinking too much and lungs by smokin…

  • Kommie

    Fungi are nature and so is the human mind …. nature and existence are one and the same and don’t need an outside agency to be “created”. It’s self generating. Nature is not part of gods but gods are part of the mind. Most religion is nonsense and shamanism is not religion

  • Kommie

    Fungi are nature and so is the human mind …. nature and existence are one and the same and don’t need an outside agency to be “created”. It’s self generating. Nature is not part of gods but gods are part of the mind. Most religion is nonsense and shamanism is not religion

  • Kommie

    Fungi are nature and so is the human mind …. nature and existence are one and the same and don’t need an outside agency to be “created”. It’s self generating. Nature is not part of gods but gods are part of the mind. Most religion is nonsense and shamanism is not religion

  • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=742104313 Adam Goodwin

    Wouldn’t you know it, this video just popped up in my recommended videos part of Youtube. Here ya go!

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4ZY1L3QLd9s

  • VaudeVillain

    I was “cured” of atheism once. Not by psychedelics, by I got way too drunk, and while I was puking my guts out I had a “chat”. I wasn’t praying, mind you, this was a two-way conversation.

    Anyway, since then I’ve come to the conclusion that I was talking to myself. This doesn’t make me, strictly speaking, an atheist. More of an autotheist: I am my own God, fickle and condescending. Booyah.

    I’ve often thought it might be interesting to try a real hallucinogen, but frankly I’m just not going to do it. I’ve seen the inside of my mind enough to know that it goes into very dark places, places that aren’t safe, fun, or particularly enlightening. Weed (which very frequently triggered mild but discernible hallucinations for me, something which I am given to understand is not exactly normal) gives me panic attacks, it seems fair to have reservations about what a vastly more powerful hallucinogen would mean for this dynamic. Well, not unless I want to watch my deity crucify myself, which would be fucked up. Plus, and maybe I’m just being a judgmental prude here, but if your beliefs require you to be out-of-your-mind stoned to really make sense, maybe that’s a sign that your beliefs are stupid.

    Anyway, atheism isn’t some sickness to be cured, just like theism isn’t a ridiculous delusion held only by fools and cowards too afraid to confront reality’s inherent lack of inherent meaning.

  • Trevor Smith

    The universe speaks. You can experience the mama matrix most mysterious, that seamless unspeakable something, literally everywhere you look, everywhere within and without simultaneously, synesthesiacally, when in the right state of mind.

  • MaryBatiste

    Peyton. I see what you mean… Joanne`s st0ry is nice, I
    just bought a top of the range audi after having made $4616 this past 4 weeks
    and-also, $10k last-month. it’s realy my favourite-job I’ve ever done. I
    started this 3 months ago and practically straight away started to earn minimum
    $84, per/hr. I work through this website,, jump15.comCHECK IT OUT

  • MaryBatiste

    Peyton. I see what you mean… Joanne`s st0ry is nice, I
    just bought a top of the range audi after having made $4616 this past 4 weeks
    and-also, $10k last-month. it’s realy my favourite-job I’ve ever done. I
    started this 3 months ago and practically straight away started to earn minimum
    $84, per/hr. I work through this website,, jump15.comCHECK IT OUT

  • ThirdSection

    Drat, I was hoping it would knock the superstition right out of me.

  • StepnSteph

    lolol “cure” someone of atheism. That in itself is hilarious and ignorant, but a sufficient (“heroic”? XD) dosage of a powerful hallucinogenic drug is apt to “cure” someone of a lot of things. Things like rational thought, for example. Hah!

  • disqus_6JDef1R8rP

    yep it has Religious Values its definitional a higher Dimensional thing of “Divinity ……all ties in and is connected. what you were told befor, you learn was infact a lie all along. if you do enuff stupidly and throw yourself in you get to see that it is all hyper real,,, Christianity Hinduism Mysticism Entities sacred Geometry Light Hyper – vivid colour that is more Real that Real …its all there waiting …. its shame as the “Religion that is in typical society hav it all wrong it seems and DO NOT HAV A CLUE of the Mushroom and its effect “Religiously” coincidence? na, but wow do you get to find out the raw truth of the deal with Psilocybin “Sumhow”…….

    Those that are ignorant towards this well Psychedelics effect you naturally if you are natural but if your mentality is of a narrow minded stubborn 2bit fake “common” living person then expect gibberish and no secrets revealed at all from them

    by the way i was a very skeptical narrow minded person befor this Experience on a Heavy dose of Mexican psliocybin let me tell you! it all there, with in your mind. how this is all over looked is beyond me,,,,,,, There scared for the truth

    Uncertain? do 7grams of potent psilocbe cubensis yaself then come back and talk to me

    takecarez

  • Bruce Johnson

    Can a Sufficient Dose of Psilocybin Mushrooms *Cure* Someone of Atheism?

    Cure atheism? From someone who in his 20’s (now in my 60’s) used to use psychedelics on a regular basis I’m slightly offended by the terminology. It is a fact that psychedelics can suspend critical thinking, take enough acid and someone might convince you the tooth fairy is real. Took lots of acid decades ago and the world seemed like a fairy tale. ’nuff said.

    • Rek Init

      If you were taking it on a regular basis, then you probably weren’t taking the “herioc doses” that were recommended by such people as Terence McKenna. Usually, if someone is taking psychedelics on a regular basis, it’s because they were taking recreational or relatively low doses in comparison to the dose ranges that this person is referring to that are the “atheist obliterating doses.” That should be made clear first before judging whether psychedelics have any efficacy towards changing an atheist’s perspective to the point where they can no longer refer to themselves as “atheist.”

      • Bruce Johnson

        Believe me, in the ’60’s and early ’70’s I took some mega “heroic” doses of LSD, ‘shrooms, Mescaline and etc. And the “heroic” doses were not taken as recreational , but to explore the spiritual and metaphysical possibilities inherent in their use. But my enlightenment resulted in the questioning of my beliefs and resulted in seeing things in a new light….One that did not include a deity.
        Much in the same regard that *really* reading the Bible will often convert one to atheism.

        • Rek Init

          Well, my point is that after having this experience, “God” is not interpreted as ordinarily conceived in western religious texts. Aldous Huxley wrote about what he called the “Perennial Philosophy.” Instead, this argues that perhaps what “God” originally meant is a metaphor to describe this colossal altered state of consciousness or an ultimate state of consciousness. So, then it can be conceivable that Christ, Muhammad, Gautama, etc. the founders of the major religions were simply mortal human beings, just like you and I, who sometime in their lifetime underwent this experience. Perhaps if not with psychedelics, then by other means.

          Psychedelics don’t seem to be the only route to have this type of “ego death” experience, but psychedelics definitely seem a reliable route to it. This experience is also reported during the near-death-experience, meditation, by ascetic means, and in some cases, a stroke can cause this to happen as in the example of Jill Bolte Taylor, etc.

          I see reading the bible thoroughly as not a path to atheism, but a path to reject the Abrahamic God. The same God which George Carlin made fun of, the God of prayer, the so-called “omniscient entity.” In eastern religion, such as Hinduism, their notion of the divine is quite different. They do not call it God, but Brahman, and it is thought to be this “ultimate state of consciousness,” which is why I believe so much emphasis is put on experience. Hindus call it samadhi, Buddhists call it nirvana, it is referred to as satori in Zen Buddhism, etc., but all these terms are synonymous and point to the same phenomenon in consciousness.

          • Bruce Johnson

            I should have been more specific, my *atheism* simply means I do not believe in any personal god. A god who listens and intervenes in one’s life in any manner.
            I suppose because of this I should label myself agnostic, I certainly cannot prove that something doesn’t exist.
            I simply took issue with the term “cure” for atheism and I stand by that, just as the devout might be taken aback if one stated psychedelics might be a cure for belief in a deity.

            If someone forced me to adopt a belief I would likely choose Zen Buddhism. (although I lack the discipline for such study)
            Perhaps the Cosmos could be called god, if so, we are also god. It could even be that we are the consciousness of the Cosmos. One thing I believe is a sure bet, none of these beliefs will ever be proven.

            For myself, I believe my consciousness is purely a function of my brain, no soul, no “quantum” magic…When I die my brain will cease to function and I will return to the state I was in before my birth, simple non-existence.
            And this doesn’t bother me in the least. As Woody Allen one said: ” I don’t mind dying, I just don’t want to be there when it happens”

            Best regards to everyone, this concludes my part of this discussion.

  • Bruce Johnson

    Jebus! Just realized this post is over a year old! Oh well, just a bit of time I’ll never get back…

  • Bruce Johnson

    IMO the “I” that was “me” before birth existed only in the DNA present in the egg and sperm that became “me” at birth.
    Before I was born I had no mind, no consciousness, therefore I did not exist. (Except in the aforementioned egg and sperm DNA and of course in the raw materials that make up my body, which change over time) Stardust.

    • Rek Init

      The point is that this “I” never existed in the first place. It’s a psychological construct contemporary psychoanalysts have dubbed “ego.” Y’ever ran a Google image search for “brain cell/universe”? Perfect image for imagining how consciousness could very well be a fractal phenomenon.

    • Rek Init

      This is not simply a play of semantics, the point is that the “I” is merely an illusion perpetuated by memory. Where is this “I” you speak of? When you investigate this question, you’ll find that it’s nowhere to be found.

    • Rek Init

      This is not a play with semantics. The point is there is no “I.” If you examine the question, “What am I?” closely, you’ll find that your definition will always be arbitrary. What you call “me” or “I” is an illusion perpetuated by memory.

      • Bruce Johnson

        Using this criteria everything is an illusion perpetuated by memory. “I” have, on more than one occasion, experienced the so-called “ego death”. I did not know who “I” was, where “I” lived, who “my” parents were…The whole nine yards. “I” found it to be actually refreshing and enjoyable.

        I believe that’s quite enough with the quotation marks, neither of us can state positively anything about anything, all experience is subjective, with even memory being suspect of modification via imagination.

        My only point was, and still is, it is offensive to agnostics and atheists to come upon an article with a title such as this.
        Perhaps we should just dance around the fire praising and praying to multiple gods. If one is good, many would surely be better…

        I would suggest that we simply agree to disagree, you believe what you wish and I will do the same. It should be totally clear that neither of us are going to change our mind due to a discussion or argument here.

        I believe that upon death I will not go to heaven or hell, I will not be reincarnated and I will not even join The Most Holy Spaghetti Monster and bask in his glorious Marinara Sauce. I will just cease to exist. (If I even exist now)

        • Rek Init

          I think atheists and theists alike are missing the bigger psychological context from which religion springs from. To the atheist or even the theist, it arises as a shallow, corrupt, counterfeit of legitimate psychological or “mystical” experiences. Abraham Maslow, Carl Jung, William James, Ralph Waldo Emerson, and countless other great minds — they’ve all recognized this.

          I think atheists are generally correct in their criticisms of religion, and are therefore an important voice in many ways. But they aren’t seeing the full picture. They’re not really understanding the deeper psychological truths and experiences from which religion springs. And of course, theists aren’t either. And that is this so-called “God” isn’t a form of entity born in the imagination, but rather originated as a metaphor to describe a phenomenon in consciousness that most people, atheists and theists alike, aren’t familiar with. Most people aren’t interested in that, because they’ve not experienced it first-hand, but if you have any interest, I’ll leave a link below.

          http://www.reddit.com/r/TrueAtheism/comments/2biur1/entheogens_and_perennial_philosophy/

          When I say “ego death,” I’m not talking about an obliteration of memory of your self-image, but instead the dissolving of boundaries. That is to say, the subject-object duality, the boundary between the subject of experience, and the objects being experienced dissolves and what then results is a union, what a Hindu might call “non-duality.”

          I explained what I meant by the “ego” is an illusion perpetuated by memory in an earlier response. I typed, “After all, where is the ‘I’? The ‘me’ is always associated with the body and the body as seen through the microscope is nothing but a play of cells being created and destroyed. Even your skeleton is filtered out and completely replaced after several years.”

          If everything is in perpetual flux, then what you call “you” is merely an arbitrary configuration of these cells which are constantly being renewed and shed in space-time.

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