What’s It Going to Take to Get Men to Stop Raping Women?

I, for one, don’t know how to get men to stop raping other men, let alone getting them to stop raping women.  But Irin Carmon has some ideas, from Alternet:

“I wouldn’t say she was completely passed out but she wasn’t in any state to make a decision for herself.”  That’s what one of the witnesses in the Steubenville, Ohio, trial told police of the 16-year-old girl at the center of the case, according to ABC News. Perhaps that witness was one of the three football players who have not been charged but are expected to testify for the prosecution in the trial, which began Wednesday.

Since it still needs to be said, not being “in any state to make a decision for herself” meets the legal definition for rape across the U.S. So here’s a question for that guy: What did he do to try to stop it?

According to the prosecutor’s opening statement Wednesday, these witnesses saw one of the defendants, Trent Mays, try to force oral sex on the girl, but her mouth wouldn’t open. They saw the other defendant, Ma’Lik Richmond, digitally penetrate the girl while she was passed out on a couch. Though the girls’ friends apparently tried to prevent her from continuing on with the boys, so far there’s been no indication the witnesses intervened with the boys who no one has disputed were capable of decision-making. And preliminary research shows that the intervention of such bystanders could make the difference in preventing rape.

Last week, an inexcusable torrent of abuse was hurled at commentator Zerlina Maxwell after she appeared on Sean Hannity’s Fox News show and sensibly pointed out that arming women is not effective rape prevention tactics, for multiple reasons. (“If firearms are the answer, then the military would be the safest place for women,” she said.) It was her message of “tell men not to rape” that seemed to most inflame the trolls. Hannity found it self-evidently ridiculous: “You think you can tell a rapist to stop doing what he’s doing? He’s going to listen to an ad campaign to stop?” He also said, “Knowing there are evil people, I want women protected, and they’ve got to protect themselves.”

It was a clash of ideas of who commits crimes in the world. For Hannity and his ilk, rape is committed by “evil people,” an immutable fact that can’t be educated away, that isn’t about social norms. For feminists who are weary of victim-blaming — including blaming women for not just shooting their rapists in the moment — and who have for decades been pushing against the idea that rape is only committed by strangers lurking in the bushes, this is tantamount to giving up the fight. Or, as Jessica Valenti recently put it, you’re “saying that rape is natural for men. That this is just something men do. Well I’m sorry, but I think more highly of men than that.”

But the problem with saying “tell men not to rape” is that the majority of rapists probably won’t listen. That’s because the majority of them are repeat offenders who don’t care about consent. Research consistently shows that while any kind of man can be a rapist, not every man is one.

David Lisak, a leading forensic researcher who has done research on sex offenders in Boston and specializes in “undetected rapists,” has written that such men, whose behavior falls into what’s still commonly called “date rape,” are “accurately and appropriately labeled as predators. This picture conflicts sharply with the widely-held view that rapes committed on university campuses are typically the result of a basically ‘decent’ young man who, were it not for too much alcohol and too little communication, would never do such a thing. While some campus rapes do fit this more benign view, the evidence points to a far less benign reality,” of serial offenders. He continued, “Prevention efforts geared toward persuading men not to rape are very unlikely to be effective. Lessons can be drawn from many decades of experience in sex offender treatment, which have demonstrated that it is extremely difficult to change the behavior of a serial predator even when you incarcerate him and subject him to an intensive, multi-year program.” He has argued that bystander programs tailored to specific contexts — say, a military base — hold more promise in stopping those predators in their track, by encouraging others to recognize the signs.

Read more here.

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  • echar

    The death penalty for those proven to have committed rape may discourage some males and females from doing so.

    • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=742104313 Adam Goodwin

      Come on now, the death penalty hasn’t discouraged much up to this point.

    • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=742104313 Adam Goodwin

      Come on now, the death penalty hasn’t discouraged much up to this point.

      • echar

        Neither has prison, which costs tax dollars. Also the victim can feel assured that they will not be able to harm them again, nor anyone else. I don’t typically support the death penalty, but for this I do. The physical harm heals, but the emotional scars can last for the rest of the person’s life.

        • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=742104313 Adam Goodwin

          Well, you’re changing the basis for your argument now. So which exactly does the death penalty do? Discourage or heal? I understand the passion behind the words, but clear thinking ought to prevail when arguments with such gravity are put forward.

          • echar

            understood

        • lazy_friend

          I was thinking, instead of castrating or killing (which we have to pay some poor bloke to do the dirty work for us) why not force the convicted rapist to pay a fee for the rest of their miserable lives to the commonwealth?”A life time financial penalty fee for those who commit and are convicted of rape”. Money seems to be the driving force behind a lot of people. But government can be corrupt and for money, they might actually encourage people to do it or wrongfully convict just to collect. It’s a very complex issue but I don’t thinking killing to save tax dollars is very humane, especially since its always done via proxy. Also, we have proven that current ways do not prevent, only punish. A lot of people see masturbating and relieving oneself as degrading and they must get someone else to do it for them. I know that’s the code with most of the males where I reside. I also understand that rape is a crime of power, which raises even more complex variables. Prevention, in my opinion, starts when you protect and respect yourself, and have a good discernment for situations and company you keep before you decide to partake in their presence, if you have the choice . But wisdom takes time to develop and most people are vulnerable. I try to protect and enlighten my younger cousin, which I have been guarding since I was 12. I know I am still vulnerable to some extent and barely escaped some very dangerous situations in my youth, but I am constantly getting better at discerning what is ideal for my safety with every near miss and stroke of luck. Rape seems to be one of the most complex crimes to prove and punish, it will take a lot of brain power to ponder its ideal solution.

          • Kevin Leonard

            A rape tax would amount to government-sanctioned rape.

          • Kevin Leonard

            A rape tax would amount to government-sanctioned rape.

          • lazy_friend

            That’s probably not the best way to propose the idea, but the detailed way is too wordy. I guess “a life time financial penalty fee for those who commit and are convicted of rape” is the right way to put it forth, LTFPFTWCCR for shorts. Got to see the forest for the trees man. But I don’t see you coming up with any new ideas, also I wrote about the possibility of that scenario. Follow up comments on this site are going down in quality every day it seems.

          • lazy_friend

            That’s probably not the best way to propose the idea, but the detailed way is too wordy. I guess “a life time financial penalty fee for those who commit and are convicted of rape” is the right way to put it forth, LTFPFTWCCR for shorts. Got to see the forest for the trees man. But I don’t see you coming up with any new ideas, also I wrote about the possibility of that scenario. Follow up comments on this site are going down in quality every day it seems.

          • lazy_friend

            Heck it works with hospitals. Some people rather die than incur inflated medical bills for the rest of their lives and do die from perfectly treatable conditions, afraid of the financial responsibilities that come with the treatments to save their lives.

          • Kevin Leonard

            You are taking this too personally.

            This is a discussion forum, not a “solve the problems of the world” forum. I do not need to have an alternative idea to discuss yours. You have a flawed idea and I am pointing it out. Reframing it will not help. There are rapists who would not have a problem with financial penalties. They also have the best lawyers.

          • Kevin Leonard

            And let’s not forget about the rapists who have no money, anyway. What is there motivation for losing all that they have, which is nothing.

          • lazy_friend

            Yeah I take personal, I am passionate about discussion at this site. There will never be a perfect solution. The rapist that have no money would pay accordingly to how much money they had. The problem with lawyers is another issue entirely and has to do with the whole of the justice system.

          • Kevin Leonard

            You might want to check your passions for a minute and think about what you are proposing from other angles. Or just continue to attack me. Whatever.

          • lazy_friend

            what are you proposing? type it out

          • emperorreagan

            What, you’re opposed to wealthy people buying indulgences and hunting young girls and boys on the local playground for rape after they’ve gorged themselves on live dolphins? Don’t you believe in America?

          • lazy_friend

            Again, not seeing the forest for the trees and mocking a serious issue. wrong topic, wrong time. I said this as opposed to killing convict like some barbarian society. I didnt say that they would be able to walk free but most rapist do very little time and a fee would insure that their jail time would be at least accounted for.

          • Kevin Leonard

            You are not seeing the trees for the forest.

          • lazy_friend

            now you are just trolling and being an idiot. my horoscope told me about this kind of response from people today

            Others may not be especially supportive or available when you need them today, dear Pisces, so it will be important to do your own thing and not worry too much about what others are doing or are not doing. Insecurities tend to drive people’s responses, and while this might be transparent to you, as you are very perceptive, you are unlikely to be in the mood to reach out with the Moon in your home and family sector, stimulating your inner hermit! Keeping your plans to yourself is probably your best bet just for now.

          • Kevin Leonard

            False. I am a Taurus.
            I thought you were going to work?

          • lazy_friend

            im a pisces, My horoscope . i am but like I said I am passionate and I am waiting for my co worker to get ready

          • lazy_friend

            im a pisces, My horoscope . i am but like I said I am passionate and I am waiting for my co worker to get ready

          • lazy_friend

            taurus The general mood today is polite, dear Taurus, but it’s not the time to dig deep. Part of the reason is that you are feeling emotionally detached or distant, and others can sense this. You may be moving from idealistic to discouraged, and this can happen many times during the day! It’s not the best day for making important decisions, mainly because you are seeing things skewed a little to the negative. Rest your brain and stick with what you know, just for now.

          • Kevin Leonard

            I know that daily horoscopes are bullshit.

          • lazy_friend

            I guess if you “know” something than it must be true and I must follow what YOU know. How about monthly horoscopes or yearly horoscopes? It’s an ancient art and usually are very vague but today its right on the money.

          • Kevin Leonard

            I never said you need to follow what I know. I am philosophically libertarian to the core.

            Please note that I said daily horoscopes. More completely, I would say that any horoscope which bases readings solely on Sun sign personality is woefully incomplete.

            Have you studied “cold call reading”? Newspaper astrologers are experts.

            The horoscope you have provided for me is not right on the money. I am not emotionally detached or distant, any more than I normally am. I have actually been feeling much more idealist about my situation than usual. You may consider that I am seeing things skewed to the negative because I find fault in your proposal. However, I normally have a very harsh attitude toward bobbiethejean, particularly in religious/spiritual matters, but I stated earlier that she makes a valid argument opposing religion in this topic.

            Everything else in the reading is advice from someone who has showed no insight into my nature and I choose to ignore it.

          • lazy_friend

            I agree that horoscopes based on sun signs are bull most of the time, but this site is no bull. Take it or leave it. I could say that air is all around us right now and you would find a way to debate it.

          • lazy_friend

            I agree that horoscopes based on sun signs are bull most of the time, but this site is no bull. Take it or leave it. I could say that air is all around us right now and you would find a way to debate it.

          • Kevin Leonard

            You are reading way too much into the fact that I find your original proposal to be faulty. I am not a contrarian by nature. But you have given me precious little to agree with.

          • Kevin Leonard

            You are reading way too much into the fact that I find your original proposal to be faulty. I am not a contrarian by nature. But you have given me precious little to agree with.

          • Kevin Leonard

            Okay. Maybe I’m a little bit of a contrarian.

          • Kevin Leonard

            Bulshit!

          • lazy_friend

            whatever dood. I don’t know what you are mulling on when it comes to my original proposal. its not extreme nor is it barbaric. and you are not giving me any concrete counter points. If you don’t agree with me fine press the thumbs down, not one lame one liner on the section of my post that specifically left for readers to further evaluate instead of spelling everything out as if I were talking to a layman or child, someone totally inexperienced with the subject and its possible solutions.

          • Kevin Leonard

            I consider it to be much weaker to simply leave a downvote without explaining why. I continually opt to argue face-to-face (keystroke-to-keystroke) than to hide behind a downvote.

            I have explained why I thought your proposal was bad. That you cannot find meaning in simple sentences is no fault of mine.

          • lazy_friend

            You just seem lazy. or maybe you are afraid of such a solution penalizing your income, in case you are ever convicted of rape.

          • lazy_friend

            You just seem lazy. or maybe you are afraid of such a solution penalizing your income, in case you are ever convicted of rape.

          • Kevin Leonard

            Who is trolling, now?

            You have done nothing but attack me since I argued against your proposal.
            You must be at wit’s end.

          • lazy_friend

            Nah bro. I am cool, we are both attacking each other, don’t be a victim. Its ok, everytime someone brings out a new idea, there are people attached to the old ways trying to keep it from ever being tested even if its only in the mental plane (not unlike what happens to scientists and new theories), and sometimes its some type of misplaced envy. Its thought control but I am one stubborn mofo with lots of free time. I just dont like when people half ass on me so i troll them into typing. On the other hand I don’t like pompous know it alls who try to force their statements on me with tons of irrelative rhetoric or sometimes blatant lies. My original post was just a suggestion. If you are going to try a burst my bubble you better do better than that.

          • Kevin Leonard

            You’ve got some disconnect, mate.

          • lazy_friend

            You just seem lazy. or maybe you are afraid of such a solution penalizing your income, in case you are ever convicted of rape.

          • emperorreagan

            It’s not a matter of not seeing the forest for the trees. I’m mocking a stupid solution.

            We already have a system with criminal penalties and civil (financial) penalties. Rich people pay their civil fines and go about their business. Less well off people pay the rest of their lives by carrying a felony charge that prevents them from getting jobs and benefits.

          • lazy_friend

            you are a moron. and we dont have a system which the penalties go back to the commonwealth in any significant amount.

          • emperorreagan

            Your argument is that financial penalty provides a deterrent. It doesn’t matter whether it goes to the victim or the state. You’re framing the same thing slightly differently.

          • lazy_friend

            No if it goes to the victim it creates some dangerous situations

          • emperorreagan

            Like what?

            Rape is reported at a rate of less than 50% and about 10% go to prosecution. People aren’t getting rich off of civil suits from false rape accusations.

          • lazy_friend

            Like I asked you before, stay away from my posts. idiot troll

          • emperorreagan

            Don’t post if you don’t want people to respond to you. In particular if you post flatly stupid things.

          • lazy_friend

            First of all that is your opinion fool. Second this is coming from a guy states that females should not be armed to protect themselves from rape in public places because they lack dexterity and might be seen as criminals for carrying a knife. you are the one being stupid, I actually spend quite some time thinking of an alternative solution to present.

          • emperorreagan

            You lack basic reading comprehension. I never said anything of the sort.

            You’re also completely unaware of where most rapes actually occur when you suggest women should carry weapons in public and unfamiliar places.

            Perhaps you should read the article you’re posting on, it offers at least some insight to the issue you’re trying to weigh in on.

          • lazy_friend

            Seems like I lack everything you don’t buddy. Surely I am not worthy to comment on such a topic and lay down a possible solution to the problem at hand. I have read several pieces on this story but since I seem to lack basic reading comprehension, none of it matter. Get over yourself. And like I said, stay away from my posts if you want to avoid arguments.

          • Calypso_1

            ER is a long standing member of this forum & often has a sage, well-articulated perspective.
            That your primary grievance has arisen from a dispute of opinion related to martial arts technique shows a level of experience in the diversity of such views that belies the presentation of maturity & intent you have demonstrated in other areas.
            Perhaps this lashing out in a virtual forum is a useful substitute for, as it is to others, such expression in the ‘real’ world.
            I hope, that if such is the case, you will realize the conscious benefit of such substitution & come to know that the target of your malice is not the fool you decry him to be.

          • lazy_friend

            He is the one calling me stupid, I am fighting fire with fire. Some causes I take to heart and he happened to pick on my knives as a self defense weapon. I am not saying I am totally correct or that I am being super mature. I just asked him to stay away from my posts, plain and simple no logic behind it. Some people I like some people I don’t. I am also a member of this forum that has been posting for a few years now, this just happens to be my latest incarnation.

          • lazy_friend

            One of the reasons I change names is so people don’t automatically agree with me on one topic because they agreed with me on others and vice-versa. I don’t need cronies. Im not here for fame or reputation and once I am tired of this name I will morph into an even cooler one. And he obviously targeting me on this topic because of my response to his on the last one, seems like he has been away from the site for a while. He had his own posts and responses to tend to, instead he came over to mock my conversation to someone else. When all he suggested is that we change marketing techniques and offer counseling. This is a violent act we are talking about and I simply suggest that the convict pay a considerable fee for the rest of their lives to help deter rape, a fee that could be reversed and refunded if the crime is overturned, whats so stupid about my idea? Rape has been happening well into antiquity. He is out of line and you know it even if I am as well. Just because someone is articulate does not mean they are correct. You write well and are correct a lot of the time but I don’t agree with everything you say and sometimes your poems seem to just make sense to you.

          • Matt Staggs

            Let’s go ahead and end this civilly, please.

          • emperorreagan

            I guess when my initial impulse is to count up the insults leveled against me and weigh them against the handful I’ve thrown out, it’s probably time to lay off the insults. Civility it is!

          • lazy_friend

            Now there is an insult scale? Where can I find such software? Next thing this dood is going to be at my house for fistacuffs. SOO bogus.

          • Matt Staggs

            At the current time we don’t have an “ignore” function built into the comment system here. Try to do your best in the absence of this feature.

          • lazy_friend

            its all good. This dood just tries to seem intellectually superior for no reason. I guess he is if he thinks he is but thats not going to stop me from posting my ideas, especially when they are mild.

          • lazy_friend

            Yeah I can ignore you. But you can’t tell me not to ask you to stay away from my posts as well. If I can’t control you, you can’t control me. If you choose to ignore my plea you can expect to have an argument every time because now its personal. You are also attached to your name it seems while I am not. I am not here to make friends I am here to make people think and to think myself.

          • lazy_friend

            And I specifically said for you to stay away from my posts, not other people YOU.

          • Kevin Leonard

            maybe if there were financial penalties for commenting on your posts?

          • lazy_friend

            I would be rich and able to afford the rape penalty

          • Kevin Leonard

            Ah, you are starting to see the problem with your proposal.

          • emperorreagan

            And I’ll reiterate:

            On a public forum, you can engage and disengage as you see fit. You can ignore people. You can ignore ME if you want. But you cannot dictate the actions of others.

            You can also choose to debate cordially and politely, or you can turn to insulting people. Just don’t be surprised when people respond in kind.

          • lazy_friend

            So I can make you lash out with simple insults? then you don’t have true inner peace or class and are at the same level as you say I am because I use insults against you. You are just portraying a fake persona while hiding your own lack of complete understanding on any topic. You name is already pretentious just like your posts.

          • lazy_friend

            Not to mention that you use your fake politeness to try to debunk my whole argument on the previous article with a bunch of false facts and opinions. Bad words are not the only way of insulting someone sir. You insult my intelligence with covert methods and I also strike back with whatever words I see fit, I am not trying to seem fancy and superior. The same way you can tell me to ignore you, I can tell you to ignore me. How am I controlling what you can do just by asking you to stay away from my posts? Seems like my NLP methods are making a little headway if they are triggering a response. For all you know I want you to respond to every post I make so I can have some fiery discussion. It’s not all as it seems.

          • lazy_friend

            Not to mention that you use your fake politeness to try to debunk my whole argument on the previous article with a bunch of false facts and opinions. Bad words are not the only way of insulting someone sir. You insult my intelligence with covert methods and I also strike back with whatever words I see fit, I am not trying to seem fancy and superior. The same way you can tell me to ignore you, I can tell you to ignore me. How am I controlling what you can do just by asking you to stay away from my posts? Seems like my NLP methods are making a little headway if they are triggering a response. For all you know I want you to respond to every post I make so I can have some fiery discussion. It’s not all as it seems.

          • lazy_friend

            Not to mention that you use your fake politeness to try to debunk my whole argument on the previous article with a bunch of false facts and opinions. Bad words are not the only way of insulting someone sir. You insult my intelligence with covert methods and I also strike back with whatever words I see fit, I am not trying to seem fancy and superior. The same way you can tell me to ignore you, I can tell you to ignore me. How am I controlling what you can do just by asking you to stay away from my posts? Seems like my NLP methods are making a little headway if they are triggering a response. For all you know I want you to respond to every post I make so I can have some fiery discussion. It’s not all as it seems.

          • emperorreagan

            I generally respond with courtesy unless given a reason not to. Rather than refuting my “false facts and opinions,” you chose to escalate to insults. “Facts and opinions” are not insults – they’re things to be debated and debunked.

            I leave the rest of your continuing argument to you and Matt, or to you and the void.

          • echar

            Please do not take this the wrong way, but you could have agreed to disagree. You may have noticed that emperorreagan used the presupposition that I was calling for revenge. I understood that it was pointless arguing the point, I could have taken it another direction or two, but I eventually decided it was a waste of energy.

          • echar

            Please do not take this the wrong way, but you could have agreed to disagree. You may have noticed that emperorreagan used the presupposition that I was calling for revenge. I understood that it was pointless arguing the point, I could have taken it another direction or two, but I eventually decided it was a waste of energy.

          • lazy_friend

            Point out flaws is easy when you have none son.

          • Kevin Leonard

            One of my flaws is I have not even one answer to this dilemma.

          • lazy_friend

            I dont have a perfect one but that does not stop me from thinking of alternatives and putting them out there. any way i got to go to work.

          • echar

            Most likely there is no ideal, because of the complexity.

        • emperorreagan

          Therapy is the appropriate avenue for individuals to seek to heal their emotional scars.

          State-enforced revenge is a dangerous practice.

        • emperorreagan

          Therapy is the appropriate avenue for individuals to seek to heal their emotional scars.

          State-enforced revenge is a dangerous practice.

          • echar

            How is that revenge? I see it as an ultimate deterrent. They can think to themselves “Is several moments of pleasure worth my life”.

            As for therapy, I do not know from experience. However I have spoken with a few women who have been raped. In my experience them as forever changed, and not well adjusted people.

          • emperorreagan

            How is the death penalty a deterrent? The evidence says its not.

          • echar

            I don’t claim to have all the answers, nor do I think rapist will ever get the death penalty. I know you are right, because murder is not deterred by the death penalty. Clearly what they are doing now is not working either.

          • emperorreagan

            What they suggest in the article is a starting point. Educating people about rape and encouraging bystander intervention. It’s also a good program for reducing domestic violence. Calling out the dude trying to isolate a drunk girl at a party, knocking on your neighbor’s door when things sound out of hand, or maybe just calling the cops if you’re uncomfortable intervening directly.

          • echar

            This is an aside, but don’t you think it’s sad that having to educate people about these things is needed? It’s pretty obvious when something harmful is going on, and it doesn’t take much to intervene.

            I am done with this topic. It will not be solved here. Have a great day.

          • echar

            This is an aside, but don’t you think it’s sad that having to educate people about these things is needed? It’s pretty obvious when something harmful is going on, and it doesn’t take much to intervene.

            I am done with this topic. It will not be solved here. Have a great day.

          • Kevin Leonard

            Has anything ever been solved here?
            I come because it helps me refine my views and points out the weaknesses in my character and my methods. It is such a good mirror.

          • echar

            That is a good point. I have come to an understanding that this topic is a waste of energy for me. I will reply to your other comment and I am moving on to other topics.

          • emperorreagan

            I agree, it is sad. But if trying to teach people to be socially engaged is necessary at this point in time, so be it.

          • Kath

            What evidence? You are a nut job. You just hope that in future you wont get exterminated after you’ve raped.

          • emperorreagan

            You’re 6 months behind on that particular ad hominem argument.

          • Kath

            I think the only thing any one’s 6 months behind on is the fact that you’re a closet rapist.

            Women, again I say, do not wait on the justice system. It is contaminated with the likes of ‘emperorreagan’. Exact your own vengeance, seek the rapist out and make sure he gets a death that’ll get talked about for centuries.

          • emperorreagan

            6 months and 3 days behind!

            If you would like to explain how one rapes a closet, I will be happy to confirm or deny whether I have ever done so.

          • jnana

            Ya watch Clockwork Orange lately?
            State-enforced “therapy” ain’t much better.
            Try Dr. Delgado’s technique for crime control, probably not much different, and more effective.

      • Kath

        It hasn’t been enforced much up to this point. Lets try using in in more instances, then lets talk again.

    • rtb61

      If not that moron, it will certainly convince them not to leave any witnesses just in case.

      • echar

        Why do you feel it is necessary to call me names?

    • Dr. Mudgett

      As long as there is a death penalty for false accusation, I am with you.

    • Kath

      This is more like it.

  • http://www.facebook.com/bender.of.angles Dave Kellum

    Rapists should be castrated: THERE’S your incentive.

    • bobbiethejean

      The problem is that a lot of cases are not so black and white and a lot of times it comes down to “he said/she said.” The idea of castrating an innocent man, to me, is as bad as rape. It’s just a nasty, unfortunate issue no matter how you look at it. : But in cases where rape has been unequivocally proven, I say just remove them from society. They shouldn’t be allowed to exist.

    • InfvoCuernos

      It won’t stop someone that thinks they are going to get away with it. You would think that getting sent to prison to get raped yourself would be enough of an incentive, but still it happens. Bottom line is there is a lot of crime that you can only punish, prevention is a trickier deal than just threatening castration.

      • echar

        I agree with what you say about not stopping some. Also, according to what I heard from people who have done big time, prison rape is really rare. The reason is because sex is given out freely, sometimes as a type of currency. In fact one of the people who told me about this said that the most disturbing thing about prison for him was seeing a man fight over another man’s ass.

        • InfvoCuernos

          That jives pretty well with what I’ve heard. Also, I guess its a myth that child molesters get assaulted as soon as they get locked up. Most people like to think there is some kind of “extra” punishment in going to prison so that it won’t seem like a grown-up version of “time-out”. I have a hard time wishing it were harder since it is government that throws people in there, and we all know how fucked up that process is, which is the only reason I have for being against any punishment that would have consequences that are more irreversible like the death penalty( or castration).

          • echar

            According to my research and what people have told me. Rapists and child molesters can get treated poorly. However the prison does not give out information freely about why a person is doing time. A person can say they are in for robbery, or some other common yet more respectable crime.

            However, information can get leaked in several ways. Such as a family member of the victim knowing people in the prison they are serving time in and writing a letter to friends. Maybe a guard finds out and spreads the word.

            Perhaps another inmate discovers by some clerical slip up. Maybe it’s a high profile situation. If this is the case they may get thrown in protective custody, it’s called PC’ing up, or whatever slang may be used.

    • http://twitter.com/RayButlers Ray Butlers

      Sexual assault does not require a functioning penis, for one. For another, identifying and convicting rapists is a problem unto itself. I assume you are talking about convicted rapists, but I believe you are thinking of revenge, not justice and certainly not prevention or self-defense. Sociopaths are by their nature unreasonable and rarely subscribe to the social contract.

    • Dr. Mudgett

      Karla Homolka is a rapist & murderer of girls. Next argument, please.

  • sambrown299

    Well there would be no rapists in a changed world.. this is just another symptom of a failed system.

  • sambrown299

    Well there would be no rapists in a changed world.. this is just another symptom of a failed system.

  • Tchoutoye

    Sombunall men. Let’s not get hysterical.

  • Tchoutoye

    Sombunall men. Let’s not get hysterical.

  • Haystack

    Have you tried asking nicely?

  • jnana

    We live in a secular culture that discourages a spiritual understanding of life. A natural outcome of believing in the flesh only, as well as not believing in spiritual consequences, is that people, especially men w/ inferiority issues, will obey the dictates of their fleshly impulses if they believe they can get away with it. Sure some of these kids didn’t get away, but how many rapists do? And if all turns to dust, why should it really matter?
    Even if you believe the Spirit is a lie, it’s at least a practical belief.(or can be)

    • Dingbert

      I was suspicious about how relevant the above comment was. But take a look at this (p.38): http://bit.ly/qcxYc8

      Muslim countries make up the vast majority of below the lowest quartile of rapes per capita. There are a couple Orthodox Christian and Eastern religions thrown in, too.
      Protestant countries make up the majority of above the highest quartile of rapes per capita. There are a few Roman Catholic and one atheist as well.

      So, maybe the way to get men to stop raping women is to get them to embrace one of the eastern faiths. I’m joking a little bit, but it still seems like a better idea than the suggestions of sterilization and execution below . . .

    • Dingbert

      I was suspicious about how relevant the above comment was. But take a look at this (p.38): http://bit.ly/qcxYc8

      Muslim countries make up the vast majority of below the lowest quartile of rapes per capita. There are a couple Orthodox Christian and Eastern religions thrown in, too.
      Protestant countries make up the majority of above the highest quartile of rapes per capita. There are a few Roman Catholic and one atheist as well.

      So, maybe the way to get men to stop raping women is to get them to embrace one of the eastern faiths. I’m joking a little bit, but it still seems like a better idea than the suggestions of sterilization and execution below . . .

      • InfvoCuernos

        I’m not so sure that the numbers in muslim countries can be taken at face value. The definition of rape there is a bit different than in “western” countries. Muslim countries also look down on women going outside the house without a male escort, so that might be another thing accounting for the lower rape numbers. One thing is for sure: saying that muslims see less rape because of an innate respect for womens’ rights is a stretch.

        • Guest

          Don’t forget about the “honor” killings! With the threat of death for reporting rape, it’s no wonder that the numbers are so low in those countries.

        • Guest

          Don’t forget about the “honor” killings! With the threat of death for reporting rape, it’s no wonder that the numbers are so low in those countries.

      • http://hormeticminds.blogspot.com/ Chaorder Gradient

        damn almost 1% of people get raped in australia?
        talk about rape culture

      • bobbiethejean

        The problem with determining the truth is that, well… this:

        Number of sexual assaults recorded by police in that country per 100,000population. Per capita figures expressed per 1,000 population.Crime Statistics > Rapes (per capita) (most recent) by country. Note: Number of sexual assaults recorded by police in that country. So the real question becomes, how much do you trust the governments of the Middle East (notoriously bigoted, especially against women) to accurately report rape statistics?

        • emperorreagan

          Also interesting: Sweden has a very high rate. You would think it was out of control, until you consider that they have a fairly broad definition of rape and actually try to prosecute and record rapes.

      • http://skadhitheravernerblog.wordpress.com/ Skadhi_the_Raverner

        Most of our social problems are through the breakdown of old mores that worked for centuries, a process centred in the west. If it worked as far apart as Christians and Confucians, there has to be wisdom in it.

    • bobbiethejean

      Flatly wrong. 80% of America is still Christian. Pretty much all the Middle East is devoutly Muslim. Yet the rape rates in these countries are phenomenally high. Funny enough, the more secular a country, the LOWER the rape rate tends to be. (I.e. Japan, Sweden, Denmark, etc.)

      http://www.slate.com/articles/life/faithbased/2008/11/does_religion_make_you_nice.html

      It is at this point that the “We need God to be good” case falls apart. Countris worthy of consideration aren’t those like North Korea and China, where religion is savagely repressed, but those in which people freely choose atheism. In his new book, Society Without God, Phil Zuckerman looks at the Danes and the Swedes—probably the most godless people on Earth. They don’t go to church or pray in the privacy of their own homes; they don’t believe in God or heaven or hell. But, by any reasonable standard, they’re nice to one another. They have a
      famously expansive welfare and health care service. They have a strong commitment to social equality. And—even without belief in a God looming over them—they murder and rape one another significantly less frequently than Americans do.

      Denmark and Sweden aren’t exceptions. A 2005 study by Gregory Paul looking at 18 democracies found that the more atheist societies tended to have relatively low murder and suicide rates and relatively low incidence of abortion and teen pregnancy.

      • http://twitter.com/DanielReasor Daniel Reasor

        Not only that, but the moral instruction offered by every church I’ve ever encountered begins and ends with “affiliate with our brand, instead of the competitors, and have a conflicted relationship with your own sexuality.” That’s obviously not enough of a foundation to build a civilization on.

        Someone’s got to instill a basic practice of respect for one’s fellow human beings. The churches aren’t doing it.

        • jnana

          I very much agree with you. It starts with us. We must critically examine all the consequences of our thoughts, words, and actions. Let’s stop lying to ourselves and ignoring the guilt in our hearts. Let’s face it, none of us is better than the nastiest criminal. The lustful and violent thoughts we give into are just as bad as raping, in that they spread to others and increase their lust and violence and perhaps tips them over the edge to act. As a society our ideals are fucked up and we’re teaching the young ones bad habits, even if they don’t see us, they pick up on it.

      • jnana

        For one, I’m not talking about dogmatic mainstream religion. I’m talking about spiritual people encouraging free thought and critical thinking while leading by example, living spiritual lives. How many people do you know who do this? If children had role models like that, examples like that, they might have a fighting chance in not conforming to our sick society’s ideals.Forcing religion onto people and giving them dogma instead of encouraging an open discussion and critical examination, leads to psychological imbalance and people who are dishonest with themselves and others. As for claiming our culture is Christian, that’s wrong. Mainstream culture does not encourage spiritual thinking and what is called “Christian” or “Muslim” or whatever, is truly a far cry from True Spiritual living. How many Christians do you know that can honestly say they live and think by the Spirit, or are even scripturally literate?
        I understand yer an atheist. And I understand not everyone will believe in Spirit. If you met me in real life, you’d know I really don’t bash people’s heads in with religion, although I do have lively debates. Since I accepted the Holy Spirit in my soul, I don’t think I ever got in an argument or got mad at them about a religious debate, or if I do it would be with the hypocritical religious. That said, what I would encourage atheists such as yerself to do to diminish the suffering in our world, especially that caused by rape, is to stand up for Good in the midst of people. To lead by example. Jesus says that every time someone looks at a woman with lustful intentions they are guilty of adultery. I think that you spread lustful thoughts when you think lustfully, that people pick up on yer “vibrations”. This is why I don’t believe in masturbation as healthy or casual sex. It increases lust in the atmosphere. I will try my best not to look at women who dress scantily, who promote lust themselves, because I don’t want to encourage it. I try to think of all women as my sisters, my mothers, or daughters. And they deserve respect and adoration. Sex can be holy and not a promotion of lustful energies, when it is conscious.
        Now, the same can be said of violent impulses. When you think angrily you spread violence. Jesus says yer guilty of murder if you get angry at somebody. I think its true b/c angry thoughts spread to other people, and if they have a predisposition to wrath, yer angry thoughts will only serve to encourage them, even across space and time, bust especially to those nearest.
        I guess what I mean by a Spiritual understanding is perhaps best described as a Service-To-Others mentality. Spiritually speaking when you give you receive. Spiritual laws are sort of opposite to natural laws, perhaps paradoxical. Like when you die, you are born. I’m not sure how one who doesn’t have a Spiritual Understanding of reality can hold Service-To-Others ideals. What are the highest goals of an atheist? Spreading their genetics and getting as much pleasure as they can now before they die.
        As I said, why should anybody else’s suffering matter, if all goes to dust and nothingness? If there is no judgment after death, no karmic retribution, nor memory of suffering, does it really matter if someone gets violently raped? In this sense, Marquis de Sade is rational. Also, George Bush and the rest of the greedy jerks. They are getting the most out of life and spreading their genetics.

      • jnana

        For one, I’m not talking about dogmatic mainstream religion. I’m talking about spiritual people encouraging free thought and critical thinking while leading by example, living spiritual lives. How many people do you know who do this? If children had role models like that, examples like that, they might have a fighting chance in not conforming to our sick society’s ideals.Forcing religion onto people and giving them dogma instead of encouraging an open discussion and critical examination, leads to psychological imbalance and people who are dishonest with themselves and others. As for claiming our culture is Christian, that’s wrong. Mainstream culture does not encourage spiritual thinking and what is called “Christian” or “Muslim” or whatever, is truly a far cry from True Spiritual living. How many Christians do you know that can honestly say they live and think by the Spirit, or are even scripturally literate?
        I understand yer an atheist. And I understand not everyone will believe in Spirit. If you met me in real life, you’d know I really don’t bash people’s heads in with religion, although I do have lively debates. Since I accepted the Holy Spirit in my soul, I don’t think I ever got in an argument or got mad at them about a religious debate, or if I do it would be with the hypocritical religious. That said, what I would encourage atheists such as yerself to do to diminish the suffering in our world, especially that caused by rape, is to stand up for Good in the midst of people. To lead by example. Jesus says that every time someone looks at a woman with lustful intentions they are guilty of adultery. I think that you spread lustful thoughts when you think lustfully, that people pick up on yer “vibrations”. This is why I don’t believe in masturbation as healthy or casual sex. It increases lust in the atmosphere. I will try my best not to look at women who dress scantily, who promote lust themselves, because I don’t want to encourage it. I try to think of all women as my sisters, my mothers, or daughters. And they deserve respect and adoration. Sex can be holy and not a promotion of lustful energies, when it is conscious.
        Now, the same can be said of violent impulses. When you think angrily you spread violence. Jesus says yer guilty of murder if you get angry at somebody. I think its true b/c angry thoughts spread to other people, and if they have a predisposition to wrath, yer angry thoughts will only serve to encourage them, even across space and time, bust especially to those nearest.
        I guess what I mean by a Spiritual understanding is perhaps best described as a Service-To-Others mentality. Spiritually speaking when you give you receive. Spiritual laws are sort of opposite to natural laws, perhaps paradoxical. Like when you die, you are born. I’m not sure how one who doesn’t have a Spiritual Understanding of reality can hold Service-To-Others ideals. What are the highest goals of an atheist? Spreading their genetics and getting as much pleasure as they can now before they die.
        As I said, why should anybody else’s suffering matter, if all goes to dust and nothingness? If there is no judgment after death, no karmic retribution, nor memory of suffering, does it really matter if someone gets violently raped? In this sense, Marquis de Sade is rational. Also, George Bush and the rest of the greedy jerks. They are getting the most out of life and spreading their genetics.

    • http://twitter.com/RayButlers Ray Butlers

      which would explain why people with stronger or more “spiritual” beliefs have much less rape. oh wait…

    • bobbiethejean

      Secularity does not discourage spirituality, it discourages religious nutters you from forcing their religion on other people. That’s ALL secularism does- it creates a safe space for people to believe whatever they want free of government tyranny as long as their beliefs do not cause harm to other people.

  • emperorreagan

    I think stopping the cultural glorification of predators coupled with what Lisak says about bystander programs would be a strong start.

    • rtb61

      Masturbation it’s cheap, easy and takes very little effort. How about cracking down on mass media and it’s whole sex sells damaging marketing campaign. Those psychopaths in suits are selling a whole ego driven insane idea where success at non-reproductive sex it the be all and end all and these insane fuckers start selling to children before they hit puberty 24/7/365 and peer driven insane physiological attack all driven by greed.
      It really is the time to kill the excesses of greed driven marketing.
      Masturbation, you are just physically stimulating to drive a brain chemical mechanism for a quick drug rush, so leave everyone else out of it.

      • emperorreagan

        There’s certainly something to be said for the fact that marketers (and many film makers who can’t string together coherent stories and instead jump from one high adrenaline sequence to another) are constantly seeking to stimulate instinctual responses, whether its sexual or fight/flight. The suggestion that the constant stimulation of those responses doesn’t affect behavior seems fairly dubious to me.

        Not quite sure what the masturbation comment is getting at.

      • emperorreagan

        There’s certainly something to be said for the fact that marketers (and many film makers who can’t string together coherent stories and instead jump from one high adrenaline sequence to another) are constantly seeking to stimulate instinctual responses, whether its sexual or fight/flight. The suggestion that the constant stimulation of those responses doesn’t affect behavior seems fairly dubious to me.

        Not quite sure what the masturbation comment is getting at.

      • Zampano Poniatovii

        Masturbation to cure rape? Rape isn’t about sex, it’s about power; sex being used as a psychological weapon of violence. It’s just as absurd to claim that someone commits rape simply because they’re horny and desperate as it is to claim that someone commits a violent assault just because they needed good exercise. Telling people to go masturbate as a solution is like telling someone to go for a jog the next time they feel like beating someone’s face in. It’s about a psychological inability to deal with other human beings without force and submission, not an inability to manage ones own physical needs.

      • Zampano Poniatovii

        Masturbation to cure rape? Rape isn’t about sex, it’s about power; sex being used as a psychological weapon of violence. It’s just as absurd to claim that someone commits rape simply because they’re horny and desperate as it is to claim that someone commits a violent assault just because they needed good exercise. Telling people to go masturbate as a solution is like telling someone to go for a jog the next time they feel like beating someone’s face in. It’s about a psychological inability to deal with other human beings without force and submission, not an inability to manage ones own physical needs.

  • http://www.facebook.com/agent139 Jamie Lee

    Let’s drop the gender entirely and say “what’s it going to take to stop rape?” period.

    • Bluebird_of_Fastidiousness

      How about we drop the gender labels when men stop raping women?

      • Jeremy

        We would, if you would just stop wearing those mini skirts and halter tops… ;-)

        • Kath

          We know you’re a troll and in essence a coward. Just shut up, you waste!

      • Zampano Poniatovii

        Being exclusionary in the application of one’s principles is conspicuously unprincipled.

      • Zampano Poniatovii

        Being exclusionary in the application of one’s principles is conspicuously unprincipled.

      • Kath

        How about men just stop raping women? It’s only a rapist who can’t agree to this.

    • IokSotot

      I simply cant grasp why women get so angry when men bring up the issue of male victims of sexual violence. Most of them are children after all. The hostility doesn’t make any sense because making men feel this is their problem, or a problem they can protect their sons from too, would surely contribute to fighting the problem.

      The hurt experienced my male victims of abuse that get shamed or told to “shut the fuck up” is not going to help them get onboard either.

    • IokSotot

      I simply cant grasp why women get so angry when men bring up the issue of male victims of sexual violence. Most of them are children after all. The hostility doesn’t make any sense because making men feel this is their problem, or a problem they can protect their sons from too, would surely contribute to fighting the problem.

      The hurt experienced my male victims of abuse that get shamed or told to “shut the fuck up” is not going to help them get onboard either.

      • Kath

        You really need to shut up. The majority of rape victims are not male, stop trying to deviate from the main issue!

    • Zampano Poniatovii

      Well said Jamie Lee. Anyone with power over another individual can be guilty of rape; it’s not a question of gender or biological difference.

      Maybe men will stop raping women, men will stop raping men, women will stop raping women, women will stop raping men — and adults of all genders will stop sexually abusing children — once everyone is rational enough to look past (suspiciously) Victorian-sounding biases in our society about gender and violence, to recognize that rape is a crime of power, not gender.

      Below are some resources readers might find informative.

      http://www.csom.org/pubs/female_sex_offenders_brief.pdf
      http://www.malesurvivor.org/myths.html
      http://www.impactlab.net/2006/08/27/female-prison-staff-offenders-in-two-thirds-of-sexual-assaults/
      http://drhelen.blogspot.com/2006/08/female-perp-or-just-prison-romance.html
      — “Woman-To-Woman Sexual Violence: Does She Call It Rape?” by Lori B. Girshick
      — “No More Secrets: Violence in Lesbian Relationships” by Janice Lynn Ristock
      — Barbara Krahé; Renate Scheinberger-Olwig, Steffen Bieneck (2003). “Men’s Reports
      of Nonconsensual Sexual Interactions with Women: Prevalence and Impact”. Archives of Sexual Behavior 32 (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12710831)
      http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=982427

    • Zampano Poniatovii

      Well said Jamie Lee. Anyone with power over another individual can be guilty of rape; it’s not a question of gender or biological difference.

      Maybe men will stop raping women, men will stop raping men, women will stop raping women, women will stop raping men — and adults of all genders will stop sexually abusing children — once everyone is rational enough to look past (suspiciously) Victorian-sounding biases in our society about gender and violence, to recognize that rape is a crime of power, not gender.

      Below are some resources readers might find informative.

      http://www.csom.org/pubs/female_sex_offenders_brief.pdf
      http://www.malesurvivor.org/myths.html
      http://www.impactlab.net/2006/08/27/female-prison-staff-offenders-in-two-thirds-of-sexual-assaults/
      http://drhelen.blogspot.com/2006/08/female-perp-or-just-prison-romance.html
      — “Woman-To-Woman Sexual Violence: Does She Call It Rape?” by Lori B. Girshick
      — “No More Secrets: Violence in Lesbian Relationships” by Janice Lynn Ristock
      — Barbara Krahé; Renate Scheinberger-Olwig, Steffen Bieneck (2003). “Men’s Reports
      of Nonconsensual Sexual Interactions with Women: Prevalence and Impact”. Archives of Sexual Behavior 32 (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12710831)
      http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=982427

  • http://skadhitheravernerblog.wordpress.com/ Skadhi_the_Raverner

    Will I ever find out why on moderation or not, or this turned into one of them sites that only talks about free speech but doesn’t practice it?

    • VaudeVillain

      Protip: talking about moderation inspires moderators to act. It is (virtually always) off-topic, and quite neatly falls into the category of “junk that a well moderated site will delete because nobody cares”.

      I’ve been posting and lurking here for a while, and I’ve seen (and written) some pretty inflammatory, ridiculous, foolish, hostile, irrelevant and otherwise undesirable comments stick around. Have you considered examining your own behavior to see if, perhaps, it has been inappropriate?

      • Matt Staggs

        Moderating (along with editing) is a thankless job. If you see something that you feel is wildly inappropriate just let me know. I can’t be online all of the time. I try to keep a very light hand when it comes to deleting posts. Most of the ones that I have had to delete are clear threats of violence against other people, offensive comments aimed at making people of particular religions, races, ethnicity, gender or sexual orientation not feel welcome to participate in the conversation, and the publication of private data (phone numbers, addresses, etc.). Finally, I do delete the obvious stuff: spam and shameless hawking of products or websites. It’s very difficult handling this kind of thing and no matter what I do, someone will be angry with me and the site.

        • http://skadhitheravernerblog.wordpress.com/ Skadhi_the_Raverner

          For some reason the comments are unthreaded somehow too, I don’t know if thats at my end or yours, and it only applies to some comments FWIW.

        • http://skadhitheravernerblog.wordpress.com/ Skadhi_the_Raverner

          For some reason the comments are unthreaded somehow too, I don’t know if thats at my end or yours, and it only applies to some comments FWIW.

        • VaudeVillain

          I think you do a pretty good job balancing the moderation needs here. If I implied otherwise, my intent was really to indicate that this site is generally permissive, so having posts deleted would, in my opinion, indicate really egregious behavior.

          Thanks for doing the generally unpleasant task of moderation here. You’re a braver man than I for doing it.

        • VaudeVillain

          I think you do a pretty good job balancing the moderation needs here. If I implied otherwise, my intent was really to indicate that this site is generally permissive, so having posts deleted would, in my opinion, indicate really egregious behavior.

          Thanks for doing the generally unpleasant task of moderation here. You’re a braver man than I for doing it.

    • Matt Staggs

      I’ve not deleted any of your posts. As for other people’s material If you see something, say something. I’m not online all the time, but you can email me at matt@disinfo.com if you feel like something needs to be examined.

    • Matt Staggs

      I’ve not deleted any of your posts. As for other people’s material If you see something, say something. I’m not online all the time, but you can email me at matt@disinfo.com if you feel like something needs to be examined.

      • http://skadhitheravernerblog.wordpress.com/ Skadhi_the_Raverner

        Thanks, it just keeps saying my posts await moderation. FWIW it only happened since I was stuck on moderation at The Independant website lol.

        • Matt Staggs

          Weird. I just checked the “pending” comments folder, and there ya go. There doesn’t appear to be any rhyme or reason to it. In any case, your comments are published.

        • Matt Staggs

          Weird. I just checked the “pending” comments folder, and there ya go. There doesn’t appear to be any rhyme or reason to it. In any case, your comments are published.

  • Dr. Mudgett

    Most rapes occur in prison, so…

  • T Faunos

    Stop rape by alleviating gender expectation of both male and female behaviors….. and then breed it out of the species for a few millions years. Long held “truths” about either gender which are not “truths” at all but rather ideas and notions so ridiculously immersed in the core structure of our culture and society that even those who study the subject might not notice the influence in the casual moment. Another way to stop rape is to redefine the traditional concept line between aggressor and victim.
    And before you jump down my throat, assuming I am going to blame a victim, hear out that it is NOT a natural predisposition for men to rape.(period) If you believe that, please refer to the second sentence of this paragraph. If a man is a rapist, he is obviously a broken specimen of humanity….So the question is begged to be asked…..what broke and how did it break? That is the question. Answer it and find half the answer to solve the problem.
    Rape may victimize one, however it involves two. One is victimized in the instant of time, the other was victimized over a length of time. Something was missed or overlooked and the result is a broken, pitiful, hateful man who rapes. A man who used to be a little boy. It’s gonna take more than a study. It’s gonna take actual change of behaviour ACROSS the board consistently over generations. Changing behaviour of how society raises men, changing the dynamic of the expectation of “what is masculinity”…changing the sexual longing for the protector/strong male aesthetic. It goes so far as to say women can wear pants and men get ridiculed for wearing skirts. We allow women to cry into adulthood but tell little boys to dry their eyes at the age of 7 lest they be “less of a man” We insist men check themselves and remain steely strong and disconnected from their core in order to maintain their illusion of masculinity….This is *common* in America. Seemingly harmless lines that we draw around the life experience of free individuals (once described as ‘precious babies’) who then seek to find their freedom by acting out in violence and who might not otherwise offend or inflict their instability or broken state upon the exterior world.

    • Kath

      This intellectual garbage. KILL ALL RAPISTS. That will result in a significant decrease if not a stop to it altogether. And I hear somebody ask, oh and what if he wasn’t guilty? Well, why was he convicted? Not my problem, nor do I care. On average, more that 90% of reported rapes did occur. If the justice system can’t do for us ladies, I suggest we spit on their dam-n graves!

  • Kevin Leonard

    We should probably start to take a hard look at role models.
    Why the fuck should Chris Brown get to perform at awards shows? Shouldn’t he have lost his endorsed celebrity card? Why has Hollywood been so forgiving of Mel Gibson? I know there are plenty of others who do not deserve our adoration.

    • echar

      I don’t know about you, but I doubt kids look at a star and say to themselves. ” You know what, Ima rape someone someday”. I think something is tweaked in their mind.

      • Kevin Leonard

        You think kids don’t imitate Chris Brown? And then watch as the most public aspects of our society ignore what he did? What other message is there but “there are no repercussions when you commit violence against women”?

        • echar

          I think kids imitate their parents.

        • echar

          I think kids imitate their parents.

          • Kevin Leonard

            Then I would have been in law enforcement and never taken any drugs.

          • Kevin Leonard

            Then I would have been in law enforcement and never taken any drugs.

          • echar

            I honestly feel that much of the issue that we encounter in society can be influenced by how we are raised. Of course there are people who are born with chemical imbalances, but again their development can be guided if parents are willing to shift their parenting style to the needs of the child.

            I feel that the education system, and the media can be secondary influences. There can be variables though, such as orphans who may look to other sources for examples.

          • Kevin Leonard

            I’ll not argue against your point.
            But does that mean that we should start policing parents for not educating children on morality?

          • echar

            gah.. back again. No policing. There’s no silver bullet, but I can give a hint. What book has influenced the West society for bad and good more than any other?

          • Kevin Leonard

            lol. that’s rhetorical, right?

          • echar

            This one book is a social blueprint.

          • Kevin Leonard

            Well, I’m fairly certain you are talking about the Bible. But bobbiethejean makes the good point that religion hasn’t been a solution for the problem. Besides, I’m fairly certain that there are 1st Amendment protections against imposing religious doctrines.

          • echar

            I am saying it’s part of the cause. Fuck religion, just to be clear. lol. I was trying to pussy foot, be all mysterious and shit.

          • Kevin Leonard

            Ha! Okay. Right.

            Religion is a very unfortunate condition when it is divorced from spirituality. And I agree that it is likely a part of the cause. One does not simply repress the most potent of instinctual nature without consequences.

            Edit: I am specifically referring to repressing sexuality, not rape.

          • Kevin Leonard

            Ha! Okay. Right.

            Religion is a very unfortunate condition when it is divorced from spirituality. And I agree that it is likely a part of the cause. One does not simply repress the most potent of instinctual nature without consequences.

            Edit: I am specifically referring to repressing sexuality, not rape.

          • Kevin Leonard

            lol. that’s rhetorical, right?

          • http://www.sacredgeometryinternational.com/ Camron Wiltshire

            Is this the “Charles Barkley” defense? j/k But I think Kevin has a very good point, the collective subconscious is literally being seeded with ill intent to create disharmony and engender a blithe acceptance of institutionalized crime, murder, rape and deceit, so the wannabe “parents” of the state (schools, military media) and their incestuous offspring do in fact play into the behavior of those on the latch key merry-go-round. Even rich kids get a bad idea from role-playing out the projected fantasies of Rihanna/Chris Left Eye/Andre Ike/Tina…. Normalizing disharmony and give it a makeover and suddenly it’s fashionable to beat women…

          • echar

            I agree, with all the cop shows, MTV, reality shows, etc.. these days and as you noted the surrogate (wannabe) parents. Yet I feel that healthy parents/guardians,examples can teach critical thinking. I also feel that kids are more susceptible to the examples their parents provide. It’s a nature/nurture thing. From my perspective it’s two sides to a coin.

  • Todd X

    How about a temporary tattoo on a rapist’s face?

    Has anyone read Robert Silverberg’s To See the Invisible Man? A good old fashioned shunning.

    So much more can be written, but changing the way rape is punished so that the violator (I wish I knew a stronger word) is the subject of humiliation that they carry with them for all to see, Allowing businesses to refuse service and even services.

    the bottom line is this, a transgressor has proven themselves to not care about another, a sentence of shunning or humiliation is hardly equal, but I would bet that it would be one hell of a deterrent.

    • Kevin Leonard

      That is a fantastic proposal. But why make it temporary? Make it permanent and a crime for others to remove it with laser treatments.

    • Nirvanasteve

      Should we tattoo ‘M’ on murderers, ‘T’ on tax evaders, ‘D’ on those persecuted for drug-related crimes? How do we get to judge who is no longer allowed to be identified as a person but as an act they perpetrated?

    • Nirvanasteve

      Should we tattoo ‘M’ on murderers, ‘T’ on tax evaders, ‘D’ on those persecuted for drug-related crimes? How do we get to judge who is no longer allowed to be identified as a person but as an act they perpetrated?

      • Todd X

        My suggestion was limited to rape, I see no harm in equating crimes that actually degrade, devalue, or denigrate or otherwise infringe upon the safety, well-being, or welfare of another as being equally shunned as the suggestion I put forward for rape..

        Tax Evasion and drug related crimes seldom have such consequences even indirectly connected with the act. The caveat I am going to assume is possession and not operating a vehicle.

        How many people do you know that were the victim of a tax evader? Or felt violated and degraded as a result of someone using drugs in the privacy of their domicile with physically harming anyone?

        The fact remains the prison industrial complex has never worked a means of getting people to respect one another. Shunning actually has. In today’ world an indicator would have to be created since we are from a myriad of tribes that interact and cross over territories like never before.

        A temporary marking is exactly that. What harm is there that is far more egregious than prison or a death penalty?

        Do you think teens in high school would jeopardize their social standing if they were shunned by law?

        • Nirvanasteve

          So you’re asking for a society where the punishment fits the crime, which I perfectly agree with. I’m not a big fan of prisons and death penalties myself. However, I was mostly incited by Mr. Leonard’s comment that this be a permanent thing because I cannot think of any crime so barbarous as to deserve a permanent stigma attached to your face that will have you hated and spurned for the rest of your existence. No-one deserves that. If anyone thinks they do, they got a lot of hate in their hearts for their fellow human beings.

        • Nirvanasteve

          So you’re asking for a society where the punishment fits the crime, which I perfectly agree with. I’m not a big fan of prisons and death penalties myself. However, I was mostly incited by Mr. Leonard’s comment that this be a permanent thing because I cannot think of any crime so barbarous as to deserve a permanent stigma attached to your face that will have you hated and spurned for the rest of your existence. No-one deserves that. If anyone thinks they do, they got a lot of hate in their hearts for their fellow human beings.

          • Kevin Leonard

            It is simply the ultimate deterrent. I’ll compromise, though. Temporary for first time offenders, permanent for repeat offenders. After xx number of years for second offense, permission for laser removal is approved. No permission for third offense.

          • Kevin Leonard

            It is simply the ultimate deterrent. I’ll compromise, though. Temporary for first time offenders, permanent for repeat offenders. After xx number of years for second offense, permission for laser removal is approved. No permission for third offense.

  • Glass House

    I have to wonder what sort of impact Google Glass (and similar technologies) will have upon such crimes in the future? Would a man still break into a woman’s home and attempt to rape her when all she has to do is think “stream live” on an emergency broadcast frequency? In theory, everyone within range of said frequency would be alerted to the woman’s plight and would be able to see and hear what was happening to her. I imagine whole neighborhoods and communities would stop whatever they were doing and run to assist. The assailant would not stand a chance of getting away with the crime, so would he even bother
    attempting to commit it in the first place? It would be the closest thing to transparency that we have ever had as a society/civilization, and I suspect that it will fundamentally alter the way in which we interact with each other. Sort of gives a whole new spin on that old saying: “Don’t throw stones in a glass house…”

  • Glass House

    I have to wonder what sort of impact Google Glass (and similar technologies) will have upon such crimes in the future? Would a man still break into a woman’s home and attempt to rape her when all she has to do is think “stream live” on an emergency broadcast frequency? In theory, everyone within range of said frequency would be alerted to the woman’s plight and would be able to see and hear what was happening to her. I imagine whole neighborhoods and communities would stop whatever they were doing and run to assist. The assailant would not stand a chance of getting away with the crime, so would he even bother
    attempting to commit it in the first place? It would be the closest thing to transparency that we have ever had as a society/civilization, and I suspect that it will fundamentally alter the way in which we interact with each other. Sort of gives a whole new spin on that old saying: “Don’t throw stones in a glass house…”

  • Kevin Leonard
  • Kevin Leonard
    • echar

      I saw something like it. No mention of the victim. What I read expressed concern for the rapists. Such as “those young teens will have this on their records the rest of their lives”. and etc. It’s pretty sad.

    • echar

      I saw something like it. No mention of the victim. What I read expressed concern for the rapists. Such as “those young teens will have this on their records the rest of their lives”. and etc. It’s pretty sad.

  • Anti-Crowley

    Let’s try teaching our children morals and ethics, sanctity of the human body and sexuality and that it is something to be cherished instead of inundating them with pornography, sexualized movies, TV shows, music and magazines. We might effect things beyond rape. Perhaps we will see a decline in STDs, unplanned pregnancy and infidelity as well.

    • Calypso_1

      That’s awesome.

      Maybe we can also try abstinence based sex ed, but with more sanctity.

      Sanctified girls are the best. Oh the beautiful, cherished glow of holy emotional masturbation.

      It’s obviously the lack of sanctity that caused the rise in teen pregnancies & STD’s.

      Focus on the Family is that way –> http://www.focusonthefamily.com/

  • Captain Ob(li)vious

    She should have voiced her opinion in a far different manner; That said, I agree with what I think she meant to say. Rape and sexual abuse of men is not nearly as overlooked by women in these times. Do you ever spend any time on Tumblr? That place is a plethora of knowledge on rape/abuse and amazing fringe cultures of all sorts. The feminists of tumblr all acknowledge male abuse-victims, although I suppose it’s likely that the global population as a whole still has a ways to go regarding the acknowledgement of abused men.

  • Matt Staggs

    This wasn’t a matter of opinion, unless “Wow. You should shut the fuck up right now.” is an opinion.

  • Matt Staggs

    This wasn’t a matter of opinion, unless “Wow. You should shut the fuck up right now.” is an opinion.

  • Acadia

    Seems like histrionics to me. Those that suffer from the disorder lack detail in their communications and are overly dramatic.

  • Captain Ob(li)vious

    True.

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