TV Evangelist Calls for Indigenous People to Repent for Their Ancestors’ Animistic Beliefs

I’m left with a few questions after hearing this “prophet’s” message. As your typical Heinz 57 style American mongrel, I’ve got a little dollop of a lot of things in my genetic background. That includes Native American (Greetings to my Modoc Great Granny Staggs, wherever you may be.), so are only “full-blooded” indigenous peoples required to repent, or does everyone with some Native American stock have to start praying the “Leviathan Spirit” away? What about the rest of us with ancestors who at one time worshiped at an altar besides that of the Christian God? Oh, crap. That’s everyone. Sorry, Jesus. I’m trying to call in, but it looks like the lines are all busy…

Via Right Wing Watch:

  • DeepCough
    • Juan

      Exactly.

    • Ted Heistman

      Good illustration!

      • Ted Heistman

        Which kind of begs the question, did the guy in the front brutally oppress the peace loving hippy guy standing behind him by converting him to Christianity?

        • echar

          Maybe your strawmen will be more convincing if you teach them to evoke dead philosophers.

        • DeepCough

          For the record, he was a Philistine (I am referring to the Dagon priest, mind you).

    • echar

      Haha the jesus fish was a vagina, I wonder if Dagon represented this?

  • Reasor

    Jacob’s ancestors, along with mine, were converted to Christianity at swordpoint by Charlemagne’s butchers, who then killed quite a few anyway in order to keep them from backsliding into their native faith. Jacobs probably views the eradication of her ancestors’ culture, and mine, as a form of salvation too.

    • Ted Heistman

      Christianity was often the less brutal option, though. I have ancestors that committed human sacrifices. For example Rollo the Ganger, converted to Christianity, but on his deathbed decided to sacrifice 100 Christians to the Pagan Gods, just in case while giving gold to churches. He liked to hedge his bets

      • echar

        Who is doing the telling, a christian historian?

        • Ted Heistman

          Oh, right, Vikings were really touchy feely, my bad.

          • echar

            Nice deflection.

          • Ted Heistman

            No, I think you are 100% correct. The Vikings invented the Brony Religion http://whatisabrony.com/

          • echar

            I didn’t realize you were the only expert online on these things. Let me quote Nietzsche to sound convincing.

            All things are subject to interpretation whichever interpretation prevails at a given time is a function of power and not truth.

            Friedrich Nietzsche

            and Ayn Rand for good measures

            The question isn’t who is going to let me; it’s who is going to stop me.

            Ayn Rand

            http://s.pikabu.ru/images/big_size_comm/2012-08_6/13459373002442.gif

          • Ted Heistman

            No seriously, you are 100 % corrrect. Vikings are really misunderstood. They are portayed as brutal, ruthless killers with horns on their helmets but actually their helmets didn’t have horns.

          • echar

            Considering Christianity is the largest religion on earth today, and knowing how it got that way. As noted in that link, it wasn’t the most peaceful of times.

          • echar

            I think it may benefit you to read this.

            http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/ancient/who-were-vikings.html

            specifically

            What are the main challenges in finding the truth about the Vikings?

            Well, one of the major problems in Viking studies is that we’re biased towards the historical accounts—early chronicles that all came from the church centers or official reports to the kings or regional authorities.

            It’s always been that way. Only in the past 20 years or so have archeological and other studies begun to provide information that fleshes out and in some cases contradicts or even replaces the historical record.

            These findings are giving us a totally different view of the Vikings. We see them archeologically not as raiders and pillagers but as entrepreneurs, traders, people opening up new avenues of commerce, bringing new materials into Scandinavia, spreading Scandinavian ideas into Europe.

            This contrasts sharply with the early accounts. They were inevitably based on victims’ reports and were extremely one-sided.

          • Ted Heistman

            Vikings were hard as fuck,OK. You wish they were a bunch of pussies so you can feel justified in being against Christianity? What is your point? You realize a lot of your liberal ideas come from Christianity? All this touchy feely egalitarian stuff comes from Christianity not European paganism. These sentiments arose from Christianity and then turned against itself, because of the inconsistencies within Christianity.

            European Paganism was an Aristocratic religion. Hard slave owning war-like Motherfuckers. FACT.

          • echar

            christianity, egalitarian? You need only look at the creation myth of literalists to see how far off you are on that. Insultingly so. Although Arnaud-Amaury’s egalitarian way of dealing with Béziers is quite telling.

            Once again, where is this info coming from, the victors? How did they ensure their victory? It wasn’t by washing feet.

          • Ted Heistman

            There is some fallacy you are committing. I forget what it is called but its basically has to do with judging historical people using modern sensibilities.

            Anyway, There have been philosophers such as Nietzsche who critiqued Christianity from the right. Also Christianity has not historically been right wing like it has been in the late 20th century and early 21st century USA, if you want some historical perspective.

          • echar

            another deflection. Sounds smart.

          • http://hormeticminds.blogspot.com/ Chaorder Gradient

            Literalism is the basest perspective and (despite the possibility of being a majority in the US due to teapartiers) should not be the ruler to measure value.

          • echar

            Literalist christianity ruled the world with stories and brutality for a long time. There is still power, even though the stories have lost their teeth and the brutality can no longer be openly acted upon nor tolerated.

          • eyebeam

            The original Christianity was very much like Communism – adherents sold their properties and gave the proceeds to the community, while the wealthy converts with large estates would house the poor and homeless. The Romans didn’t think they were fighting a new religion, so much as an ideological threat to the social order, one that said that the lowest slave was equal in God’s eyes to the Emperor.

            Early Christianity was not literalist – many early writings refer to the allegorical nature of the parables, and it is frequently mentioned that these were stories for the teaching of children, but adults should learn the secret (unwritten) truths behind it. When the Imperial government merged with the Christian apparatus under Constantine, literalism became a tool to control the credulous masses.

          • echar

            Thank you :)

          • mannyfurious

            St. Augustine was also distinctly not a literalist.

          • https://www.facebook.com/cuthbert.bodkins Threedinium

            Let the blood speak eh? ;)

          • echar

            Only if you don’t mention the blood created by the victors.

          • https://www.facebook.com/cuthbert.bodkins Threedinium

            Seems to me like history has a funny way of presenting it’s truth in the now.

          • echar

            True, yet some have been conditioned to overlook actions as though they are God given.

          • Liam_McGonagle

            It’s a thin line between cannibal and capitalist. Why can’t BOTH portraits be true?

          • echar

            If I was in a situation where was drastically out of food and you died, you better believe I’d capitalize on your remains.

            I doubt that’s what you mean. I am open to many perspectives.

      • Anarchy Pony

        It’s hard to tell when and why certain cultures and religions started practicing human sacrifices, and many seem to start it during periods of severe stress or conflict, and then becomes a part of the norm. It’s a danger to any religion that stresses material sacrifices, and the ultimate sign of devotion(as it seems to the practitioners) would be sacrificing an actual person.

        • Ted Heistman

          I think defending human sacrifice in order to demonize Christianity is a tough row to hoe. I mean that’s a strange place to go. So I don’t go there.

          I think its possible this “Leviathan Spirit” has some basis in reality even though this women is crazy and has a vacant look in her eyes. I think her brand of Christianity is oppressive and creepy. But I have encountered reptilian ancestral Spirits on Shamanic journeys before, more than once.

          So I look at it from a shamanic perspective. More common of a critique of this type of thing is the atheistic perspective, that its all 100% bullshit, but I actually think Christians practice (black)magic and shamanism in their own way everything they say about the so called supernatural is slanted toward their perspective but isn’t always 100% bullshit, IMO.

          • echar

            Ritual Human Sacrifice in the Bible

            http://www.evilbible.com/Ritual_Human_Sacrifice.htm

          • Ted Heistman

            OK, This is a role playing game and you want me to play the role of the right wing fundie Christian right? Because every topic only has 2 ways to look at right?

          • echar

            You react like one.

          • Ted Heistman

            That’s because you don’t get what i am saying.

          • echar

            I do, you just think I don’t.

      • Ted Heistman

        I’ve studdied these barbarians, they were more brutal before Christianity. Christianity turned them into Knights. So keep down voting me you fucks. A down vote from an ignorant dumb ass is an upvote.

        You think Charlemagne’s Pagan ancestors were pacifists?You think Europe would have turned out better if everyone kept worshiping Woden? I mean I find Woden interesting and everything and fighting bravely to go to Valhalla etc. But that was barbarian Europe not socialist Europe with egalitarian values.

        • The Well Dressed Man

          How much of the Christian mythos is repackaged paganism? I’m no expert, but I’m suspicious that the western Christ may be part Odin. I’ve read that in some of the Norse myth-cycles, Odin was part of a trinity of gods, and that suffered a similar experience to the crucifixion, hung from a tree for nine nights.
          As far as behavior, do you think the transition from one state religion to another was more of an influence than a technologically superior conqueror enforcing it’s laws? Consider the civilizing effect of the Roman empire on Gaul and Britannia.

          • Ted Heistman

            Here’s my perspective: Christianity has had a huge effect on Western values. The effect, I believe is that its made the west more egalitarian and democratic. That was Nietzsche’s take on Christianity, and I think he had a point.

            These Christian values overturned the original aristocratic values of Pagan Europe as it had that that of the Greeks, Romans etc.

            So then people took these values and applied them to Christianity and basically used them to discount Christianity.

            This where the West is now. These is where most of the commenters of disinfo are at.

            So to say “Oh Christianity is bad because its hierarchical and warlike and violent. The Paganism that preceded it was much better!” I think is silly and not historically accurate.

            as far as Santa Claus and Jesus borrowing from Odin, sure, but that’s besides the point.

          • The Well Dressed Man

            We romanticize pagan Europe in a manner similar to the idea of the “Noble Savage,” seeking our distant tribal past.

            Human sacrifice is shitty. Christ as the final sacrifice is a powerful archetype that unquestionably improved the state of things. We still find ways of butchering each other, but I suppose we typically have more of a pragmatic excuse than “because God.”

            I believe Nietzsche’s chain of reasoning on Christianity continued past your description to a conclusion much less positive.

          • Ted Heistman

            “I believe Nietzsche’s chain of reasoning on Christianity continued past your description to a conclusion much less positive.”

            Care to expound expound on that? I have been reading Existentialists such as Sartre, Kierkegaard and Dostoyevsky and I don’t find it negative at all. But its not easy to confront what existentialists confront. The fact is what choice is there?

          • The Well Dressed Man

            Haven’t read big N for so long, I don’t know where to turn for a quote. I wasn’t judging his logic in a negative light. I seem to recall his judgement of Christianity a “slave religion” that weakened the West.

            I feel that existentialism is an ultimately positive school of thought. It’s absolutely up to the individual to take full responsibility for existence. If we want our life to have meaning, nobody else can really help.

          • Diana Firebaugh

            Jesus was one of many……born on such n such a date, died, risen in 3 days……………there are not records of Jesus……the Bible???? re-written….re-written I’VE done real research…..ALL “religion” is man-made

          • http://hormeticminds.blogspot.com/ Chaorder Gradient

            Here’s to hoping the coming atheist renaissance of sorts is not hierarchical, warlike, and violent… i have my doubts though.

          • echar

            The Romans are fucking christianity, you “fuck”.

            This is how it happened, Mr. I have researched this and no one else has.

            There was the original gnostics, then there was the literalist violent christians. The latter basically bribed a powerful Roman with eternity in heaven to accept the literalist view.

            Besides , Justinian I believe (I could be off on the name), saw the import of the social engineering. They then used the military might of the Roman empire, as well as the resources to spread their empire further.

            Destroying cultures a la proto nazi techniques which isn’t being totally honest, but the nazis did model themselves after the catholic churche’s inquisition (because it was beyond effective). Using stories and power (murder) meanwhile writing the history. To the victor the spoils. But oh right, you did some research.

            Oh and you mentioned the church turning barbarians into Knights. Like during the Albigensian crusades when they knighted anyone and everyone (Rapists, thieves, murderers, etc) to do their dirty work. All with the promise of forgiveness for their sins, past and more importantly those they will commit in service of pope.

            Your narrative is the one accepted by the victors. Like you said elsewhere, every topic has only two ways to look at it?

            Also I am amazed you were capable of calling these destroyed cultures barbarians, (a word used by the “civilized” to denote a lower stature much like the Nazis did with their Jewish propaganda) and not call them Heretics.

            I remember a story about Aliester Crowley working for the MI5 as a spy by writing in a Communist rag. His schtick was to be the nastiest most repugnant possible, yet also believable by tugging at emotional themes. All to discredit, you see. How long has it been since you’ve quit christianity?

          • jnana

            the gnostics and the orthodox weren’t so divided as that. it’s a common interpretation but misguided. there have been periods of tolerance on all sides, only the violent parts are worth mentioning in the history books

          • echar

            Maybe until they were nearly wiped off the planet.

          • Angel

            You are sorrowfully misinformed Ted. Most so called “pagan” societies were not brutal and violent. There were some, yes, as there were all over the world but they were fewer than the spiritual based ones. I pose you these questions. How much of those “barbarians” activities were the result of foreign invaders such as the Romans? How much of that history your’e “researching” is accurate in describing these people? Native American people were described as barbaric savage cannibals just as the German tribes were by the Romans and the Scandinavian tribes were described by the Christians. The Brutality of Christianity started when it became the official control mechanism of the establishment. This seems to follow suit with all of it’s prior religions as well, all being somehow tied to a savior.

            I’d hardly refer to Christianity a cultivator of Democracy when it’s reasoning for converting all non christians in the world was simply “Convert or face murder, maim, rape, and genocide”. Nothing has united the world more under a poverty driven oligarchy than Christianity.

            If you think Christianity overturned any sort of aristocracy and replaced it with something better you’re in for a shock. We still live in an privileged aristocracy who are brutal and vicious behind the scenes but charming, moral angels in front of the camera.

          • Ted Heistman

            010111000111000111100011110001010101010101

            Everything is binary right? Yea or Nay? Christianity bad=Paganism Good. Why make subtle distinctions? Black and white is much simpler.

          • jnana

            even that binary view of reality may stem from Xian dualistic-ish ideas as opposed to pagan pluralism

          • Angel

            Who said anything about good and bad? I’m discussing history, accuracy, and perspective with you. I won’t be drawn into an ego contest i’m simply trying to inform you of things you may not be aware of. Goodluck in your research.

          • Diana Firebaugh

            that’s the same thing

          • Diana Firebaugh

            you got that right…but…….it is also used as manipulation

          • jnana

            never thought about it like that, but that’s a very astute observation. that modern ideas of morality and justice and equality, leftist kinda ideals, and environmental ideals even are direct descendants of Xian ideals(I would argue Buddhist/other Eastern religious ideals too, which probably influenced and was influenced by Jesus’ teachings).
            Those same modern ideals are used to criticize Xianity.
            Very interesting.

          • echar

            Much of it not all the rituals and holidays were “adopted” to make it easier to assimilate. Basically, Plata O Plomo! Kneel to us and here, look you can still “party” on this date. Don’t mind that we’ve destructed your temple, you will build a new one for us and worship our approved God with a message that doesn’t support our power structure *wink wink nudge nudge*

            Oh and by the way if you don’t we may still kill you, and or our God will punish you in the worst possible way imaginable. Oh and don’t worry, it’s for your own good, you silly little barbarian, we offer you civility, or else!

          • Ted Heistman

            Who is “us”? Powerful demi gods?

          • echar

            the bronies

          • Nate S

            You hit the nail right on the head my friend! Christianity is paganism 2.0…

        • echar

          Again, where did the info come from, The victor whom claimed civilized or else?

        • Mike Notlisted

          ……….

          • Ted Heistman

            Do you know the difference between the Sami and the Saxons?

          • Ted Heistman

            The-pre-Christian Agricultural people didn’t oppress the hunter gatherers? That didn’t happen? It was all one big happy hippy pagan family until Charlemagne came along?

          • Mike Notlisted

            The pagan people weren’t peaceful hippies across the board. But I don’t think the European pagans were any less egalitarian than the Christians. Europe has been war-like for most of its KNOWN history.

            One of the main issues with the spread of monotheistic Abrahamic religions around the world is that these religions have no roots in any part of the world except the Middle East and areas of North Africa. These religions do not take into account the cycles of nature and do not provide their practitioners with any spiritual connection to their particular biome. Christianity has effectively wiped out all traces of European indigenous consciousness and is on its way to finishing the job in the America’s.

          • Ted Heistman

            I think there is something to that, its just not the whole picture.

          • Mike Notlisted

            What is your observation of the whole picture? I find this issue to be interesting.

          • Ted Heistman

            Well, I mean The Vikings didn’t practice sustainable Agriculture. They ran through resources, when they encountered people who did live sustainably, such as the Inuit they slaughtered them and so learned nothing. The Vikings and the Germanic tribes such as the Saxons, the Goths, etc. prior to Christianization had similar cultures and religions. I think the Celts were more spiritual and Earth based and they developed their own brand of Christian Mysticism prior to The Roman Catholics taking over Ireland.

            I think The Catholic Church had some elements of humanism that was lacking in Barbarian Europe. “The Son’s of Odin” thought of themselves as divine, descended from a God and by the natural order of things, meant to rule. So I think being a slave would suck worse under that regime than under Catholicism. The Church at least thought of everyone as human. There was no caste structure built into it in an inherent way. It was anti-caste. I mean you could say that caste structure was worked into it hypocritically, but under paganism it was more inherently hierarchical. The roots of the Hindu religion and European Paganism were similar in that regard.

          • Mike Notlisted

            I agree that the Vikings did not practice an environmentally sustainable way of life. I do think their spirituality had elements that were based on their biome and that allowed them to relate to the world around them through their religion which I don’t believe Christianity allowed them to do. Either way, the Vikings were not living sustainably which is probably why they left Scandinavia in the first place.

            As far as the Germanic tribes are concerned, Romanization is probably what had the greatest impact on their culture prior to Christianization so its hard to say what these cultures were like before this happened. I will say that even though I don’t support what Charlemagne and Charles Martel did to pagans they did create a unified empire which allowed Europe to keep the Muslims out. The pagans at that time who were not Lithuanian were more tribal and didn’t have the organization to unite against the Muslim threat. I don’t like Christianity or Islam but I personally dislike Islam more.

            I see the point you are making regarding the caste system. Social stratification in Christian societies and slavery did occur and that can be seen in the divine right of kings as an example. I agree that these things were implemented hypocritically. I think the initial intent of the caste system in pagan/polytheistic systems was a good one. The idea of a god king manifesting the divine will or archetype of a certain god makes for a selfless leader. Different castes being accepting of their stations in life and their role in society can also be a good thing. In India, people could switch to different castes if the one they were born into wasn’t in their nature. This is obviously not the case in contemporary times.

            I subscribe to the idea that social stratification occurs in agriculturalist societies at a far greater level than in lower food production cultures. I think the caste systems initially had a spiritual reality to them that no longer is part of our consciousness and that the Christians had social stratification solely based on being agriculturalist which later was given a spiritual justification as is seen in the divine right of kings.

          • Ted Heistman

            I think you make some good points. I am not in anyway against resurgence or reconstruction ism of Paganism. I just feel that with big event like Europe becoming Christianized, happened so long ago and had such a huge impact on the rest of the world, to call it into question, in order to posit some preferable alternative outcome, is not so cut and dried.

            Chances are things you find preferable about the World today are all tangled up and intimately connected with what you find lacking. Everything is connected.

          • Mike Notlisted

            ……………..

          • Ted Heistman

            and they still are.

  • BuzzCoastin

    the really frightening part is
    this the level of intelligence of Der Homeland’s herd

    vapid, intellectually barren thoughts
    transmitted by miscreants like this
    to people even more dull witted
    thanks to edumacation & industrial food

    • David Duke-Astin

      I think that ignorant people are willfully so. It’s not like it’s so hard to know the facts.

      • Anarchy Pony

        Well it’s like that saying: It’s very hard to get someone to understand something when their job depends on them not understanding it, Mark Twain’s “Corn-pone opinions” etc.

      • BuzzCoastin

        actually
        it is pretty hard to know any “facts”
        there is a piece of disinformation
        which accompanies any piece of information

        but this woman has been around for hundreds of years
        I just read the same story in “The Education Of Little Tree”
        (the penultimate chapter)
        slow-witted bible believing automatons
        the very foundation of Der Homeland

        • Juan

          Exactly, this attitude goes way back. It was the same beliefs that allowed the Europeans in the Americas to carry out their genocide in the name of the lord.

        • eyebeam

          The most important thing to know is that most of what you know is probably false.

          • BuzzCoastin

            I can agree with that
            but would like to refine it to:
            the most important thing to know is that you don’t know
            and what you do know is distorted

        • David Duke-Astin

          “facts are stupid things”
          -Ronald Reagan

          • BuzzCoastin

            Ronnie Raygun stupid thinks
            Fact

  • Deteis

    My cat doesn’t know about god either. Should I pray for his salvation?

    • Matt Staggs

      Check this article for some solid advice regarding that topic: http://www.theonion.com/articles/are-your-cats-old-enough-to-learn-about-jesus,11206/

      • Anarchy Pony

        Animals don’t go to heaven. Which is why I am no fan.

        • Juan

          Of animals?

          • Matt Staggs

            Chuckled at this one.

        • Deteis

          Why wouldn’t Animals go to Heaven? Are they somehow less perfect than his chosen Animal, the Human?

          • Anarchy Pony

            According to the bible thumpers, yes.

          • jnana

            and who is it who as determined those are the interpreters of God’s Will for us?

        • Matt Staggs

          Will Rogers – “If there are no dogs in Heaven, then when I die I want to go where they went.

          • Anarchy Pony

            A man after my own heart.

    • jnana

      yes, and give her as much of it as you can

  • echar

    There’s a video of this woman claiming she has made spaghetti multiply, like how Jesus did with the bread and fish.

    • The Well Dressed Man

      Touched by a noodly appendage she was…

      • Bluebird_of_Fastidiousness

        Oh, she’s touched!

      • echar

        Ha!

  • Ted Heistman

    I have a different view of this. I think there are ancestral spirits that could be hostile Christianity. I am not a Christian though, so to me they aren’t evil Spirits. I think its quite possible that there are Spirits associated with Christianity, that aren’t really, for example, angels serving “the True God” or whatever, but actually Spirits with a less Noble agenda.

    • Anarchy Pony

      Like those that Derrick Jensen refers to as “Those Who Do Not Wish Us Well”?

      • Ted Heistman

        I think the Gnostics had some insights into these kinds of Spirits. I am not familiar with Jensen’s take on this.

    • Gad The Father

      Maybe they just have a savagely twisted sense of humor

  • Juan

    Guess I should be used to . . . not sure what to call it, ignorance, bigotry, ethnocentrism, white supremacy.
    So according to this creature’s fundy, xtian ideology, the god of Abraham (criminally insane psychopath) is ok, but any group of people that may have had more pantheistic sensibilities who happened to include reptilian imagery in their spiritual practices is guilty of worshiping a “leviathan” spirit of evil. Right, got it thanks. I guess there is no end to this shit. Fuck, I really hate these assholes. Especially after seeing first hand the devestation the evangelical missionaries have caused in the Amazon. I abhor violence, but if anybody deserves to have their fucking throats cut in their sleep . . .

  • Angel

    The only thing we Native Americans “worship” is the Creator and no one else. Ignorant brain dead missionaries like this never do their research. The assumption is if you have skin other than white you must be converted and you must be a devil worshipper. Christianity would be a lot different if they actually called Jesus “Yeshua” and pictured him as the darker skinned HEBREW that he was instead of the blonde haired blue eyed version they seem to think is historically accurate.

    • echar

      Sadly the original “christianity” was hijacked, and it’s been perverted into what is forced upon us today.

  • echar

    Like many Christians, this woman completely overlooks their demonic past and obliviously declares all should accept dominance. Some mean well, yet they’ve been conditioned to view this world that way.

  • Liam_McGonagle

    It’s possible to pervert any belief system towards an antisocial end.

    That said, there are important differences in how one goes about that perversion, given the contours of the original, core belief system.

  • Ted Heistman

    I think Cultures that worshiped dragons and believed their leaders were blood descendants of dragons, from the “sea” or from outerspace or whatever, tended to be very hierarchical, brutally violent and War like. I also think this is related to grain agriculture. Corn in the Americans, among the Mayans and Aztecs, Rice among the Chinese and other Asian cultures and Wheat in Eurasia.

    I think egalitarian hunter gathers had different animistic beliefs than worshiping big scary reptiles who set up feudal kingdoms.

  • PMA
  • Diana Firebaugh

    When you are approached by a Christian………….put your hand on your wallet and back away…..slowly