George Zimmerman As The Good Samaritan

George ZimmermanThe cynic in me says that this is Act 1 in the rehabilitation of George Zimmerman’s public image after getting away with murder. From

Channel 9 has learned George Zimmerman helped rescue a family from their overturned SUV in Seminole County last week.

A man, woman and their two children were in the SUV when it crashed about 5:45 p.m. Wednesday in near Interstate 4 and SR-46 in Sanford.

When deputies arrived, they said Zimmerman and another man had already helped the victims out of the wreckage…

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  • bobbiethejean

    Yes, that’s lovely but it doesn’t change the fact that he stalked, confronted, then shot an unarmed teenage boy. I don’t care if Zimmerman was the nicest nice guy who ever niced in the entire nice nice nice niceNICE. Does not change the fact that a boy is dead because of him and it was utterly, completely AVOIDABLE. Whether or not the man is an actual murderer, we’ll probably never know but we DO know that he killed a boy when he did not have to engage him in the first place.

    • Ted Heistman

      I thought you didn’t claim to have psychic powers, but now you do? Did you go back in time and practice remote viewing of the crime scene?

      • bobbiethejean

        Guys, you’re wasting your time. This clown thinks he’s psychic because he has a good instinct for reading fairly obvious body language and sexual cues from women. And apparently he thinks I think I’m psychic because I know how to use simple deduction and arrange facts in a logical manner.

        Ted, it’s really simple: We KNOW that Zimmerman did not have to confront Trayvon. He could have stayed in his car and let the cops handle it. That doesn’t require any great feat of psychic prowess or even the plain old mind – WE KNOW IT AS FACT. That is not in dispute! Zimmerman CHOSE to start a problem when he should have stayed in his damned car and let the cops handle it.

        • Ted Heistman

          So which is it? Cops are no good or they should handle everything? Or is it both? Cops are no good AND they should handle everything.

          Doesn’t make a hell of a lot of sense. The difference between you and I is I don’t claim to know everything.

          • bobbiethejean

            Wow, black and white thinking much? You are suffering from some rather severe nuance blindness there, buddy.

          • wiseoldsnail

            cops suck BECAUSE they don’t know how to handle what we pay them to handle … cops SHOULD handle criminal and civil issues, as we pay them to do this …

            it’s not ‘which is it’ … it’s both

        • Eric_D_Read

          You wouldn’t know logic or deduction if they DP’d you on video.

          • bobbiethejean

            Moooooooooore ad homs. I’m starting to think you are incapable of making actual arguments because 90% of what you say is just variations of “you’re stupid” which, if you didn’t know, actually makes you look pretty damned stupid.

          • ishmael2009

            I think you’re absolutely right to point out that Zimmerman had no need to do what he did and follow and confront this kid. As a Neighbourhood Watch Officer, he should have observed from a distance at most if he had reason to suspect Trayvon. It’s ironic that a lot of the people who support Zimmerman would also be outraged if a private cop or neighborhood watch officer followed them and asked them what they were doing. They need to think about that.

            I do get why Zimmerman was found not guilty. It’s shitty and imperfect, but that’s life, not just the justice system. “Beyond reasonable doubt” and all that. I just wish it would apply more when it’s the other way around.

          • bobbiethejean

            Indeed. Well stated. I don’t entirely agree but I see where you’re coming from and I appreciate that you were able to express your thoughts without calling me stupid. 😛

          • Eric_D_Read

            I’ve given up trying make factual, reasoned arguments with someone who has demonstrated time and again that they have either no interest in, or no ability to, engage in one.

          • bobbiethejean

            You have not made factual arguments. All you’ve made are ad homs and emotional pleas and STILL you have failed to refute my arguments.

            1.) Zimmerman was advised not to follow.

            2.) Zimmerman COULD have stayed in his car.

            3.) Zimmerman had a gun, Travyon did not.

            4.) Zimmerman’s story is extremely questionable and does not fully jive with the evidence.

            5.) The cops immediately believed Zimmerman’s story and allowed him to walk away despite the fact that he had just shot an unarmed teenager to death.

            I could keep going but I don’t see the point. Even after a full page of arguing, you have no answers to this. Apparently, in your world, it is ok to wander around with a gun, decide people “look suspicious,” brand them guilty, and shoot them dead without due process of the law. You are a sick human being.

    • Ted Heistman

      So its wrong to confront people who are walking around and appearing to case houses and you are a member of the neighborhood watch?

      In your remote viewing and time travel were you able to discover evidence of the fact that Martin had been suspended from school on suspicion of burglary?

      • emperorreagan

        My question is: to what end?

        If you feel like you should confront someone, do it. Talk to them. Ask how they’re doing, ask if they’re okay. If something seems off, you can go from there.

        Or just straight up call the cops and let them handle it.

        Cruising around, stopping, calling the cops, losing track of the person you’re following, trying to follow and figure out where they went, etc. is shady, cowardly bullshit.

        • Ted Heistman

          Have you ever lived in a high crime neighborhood or ever been in a fight? I ask because people who are so self righteous about this strike me as naive.

          • echar

            I have… There was an old lady that lived a couple blocks away from me. One day she was watering her flowers and such in her yard when a car full of blacks kids were going too fast on the road.

            She yelled slow down and sprayed the car with her hose. The car stopped and backed up. They then got out and beat the shit out of her. I’ve got more to share, but that supports what you are saying.

          • Ted Heistman

            Well, shit like this happens and if its the truth its not racist to acknowledge it. Racial profiling is wrong but that’s not so say violent criminals (some of which may be people of color) don’t exist.

          • echar

            A lot of people in those rough areas do not give a shit. Before I lived there, I would have scoffed at the concept. I now know from experience.

            on another tangent…

            something else that is racist about this Zimmerman deal. People are claiming he got the white man free pass, yet he’s mixed race.

          • Ted Heistman

            Well, if all issues are black and white and Martin is black than Zimmerman must be white. That seems to be the logic.

            Anyway my impression was Martin was on a fast tack to either prison or the grave. To me breaking into houses is not “oh well boys will be boys” That’s a sign of a bad a kid.

            But in the end I don’t know. I wasn’t there and a jury found him not guilty.

          • The Well Dressed Man

            I was really trying not to react to this “White privilege” angle, I don’t see it here. This kind of literally Black or White, binary thinking dumbs down the dialog on a complex topic. What I’m taking away from the tragedy though is a reminder of how limited the opportunities for young Black men are to be safe from crime and violence.

          • echar

            I couldn’t agree more about calling out the polarities on this.

            I think another lesson is one which Ted mentioned. Guns can provide the opportunity to kill someone. If a person is twitchy, they probably shouldn’t have one.

          • wiseoldsnail

            meanwhile, they’re on the verge of returning zimmerman’s murder weapon to him

          • Ted Heistman

            Nobody forced him to break into houses. I think “stop and frisk” is a clear case of racial profiling and discrimination, in this case I think it was vigilantism against a kid that actually was a criminal.

            So yeah its a tragedy but some kids go down that road. Not everyone that ends up dead or in jail is completely innocent. People start breaking into houses in an area and it has an effect on the people there. They start fighting back and people can end up shot. A lot of people just move away and then you get areas that are rife with dysfunction and criminality. I don’t see any easy answers.

          • The Well Dressed Man

            The same legal principles that presume Zimmerman’s innocence also presume Martin’s. The kid had some sketchy stuff in his school record suggesting he may have been up to no good, but nothing like a conviction. There are no easy answers. The fact that so many young Black men end up dead or in prison is the real reason folks are upset, and this case, for better or worse, has become a symbol. I think the truth is somewhere between systemic inequality and a failure of the Black community to provide positive role models.

          • wiseoldsnail

            zimmerman was known for racist attitude long before this … and self-identified as white all his life. that matters … alot

          • emperorreagan

            The point I intended to make isn’t that it’s necessarily a good idea to to confront anyone.

            The point I was trying to make and perhaps didn’t before Ted devolved into ad hominem is that Zimmerman’s tact was neither to confront the person nor to stay out of the way and let the cops find and confront them.

            So my question is still: to what end do you take Zimmerman’s course of action?

            If you follow someone around, there are plenty of people that are going to read that as predatory behavior – whether you’re planning to attack someone or have some fantasy about restraining them and waiting for the cops doesn’t matter.

            Or are you skulking around and spying on someone, hoping to be on the edge of the action when the cops show up?

          • Ted Heistman

            Not sure what I said that was ad hom. That’s not my intent. I am just interested in why people see this so differently than I do.

            I tend to think people mostly follow their pre-concieved notions.

            People like to just throw away things that point to this kid being a known burglar. That’s convenient. Why is that? All I know is its a hazardous hobby for a kid. Its not a tragedy if kids like that end up shot. Its common sense.

            I think its actually racist to assume 17 year old black kids don’t know right from wrong.You don’t know it was wrong to break into houses and steal things when you were 17?

            The kid was heading to Prison or death.

          • echar

            People like to just throw away things that point to this kid being a known burglar. That’s convenient. Why is that?

            I think people throw the baby out with the bathwater because he was a babe, or rather he was young. People tend to get irrational when the young are involved. This is totally whim, yet he could been the most powerful demonic force, and Zimmerman saved the world. He would still look like a child murdering, gun nut, of a nightwatchmen.

          • emperorreagan

            Legally, the defense would have had to prove that it’s relevant.

            It’s thrown out otherwise because Zimmerman had no way of knowing that Martin was a “known burglar.” You can’t act on something that you don’t know.

          • echar

            What a mess.

          • emperorreagan

            I think his being a known burglar is irrelevant. It’s wasn’t known to Zimmerman and he didn’t catch him in the act of burglary. Zimmerman may or may not have caught him in the act of casing houses. If that’s what he really thought, then calling the police was probably his best course of action. Then go home – easy to give the cops your very own home address to meet you at after they’ve checked out the suspicious person.

            My problem with Zimmerman is the choice to pursue what was, at the most generous, a foolish course of action that killed someone who may or may not have been up to no good at that point of time. If Zimmerman had tried to talk to Martin up front and had to use his gun because he was attacked, I wouldn’t care. If Martin had been breaking into his house and been shot, I wouldn’t care either. It’s the weird following him around for god only knows why that causes me to fault Zimmerman even if I believed his account is 100% accurate.

          • Ted Heistman

            Yes. Its very clear your mind is made up. That’s fine. I am just curious how others see this. Nothing in it for me to convince you of looking at it differently.

          • wiseoldsnail

            that last line is a decidedly racist comment.

            meanwhile, ‘this kid’ had a name : trayvon martin. he had family who loved him. zimmerman knew ZERO about him, ie projected his own fears of black men onto martin, then used that as an excuse to target martin.

            this ::: ‘Its not a tragedy if kids like that end up shot. Its common sense’ is disgusting. you are suggesting that it’s just fine with you if a kid ends up dead for simple theft and possibly smoking pot. glad you aren’t king.

          • echar

            So my question is still: to what end do you take Zimmerman’s course of action?

            I take his course of action as stupid and flippant. Something I would not choose to do.

          • emperorreagan

            I have been in both. I lived in a trailer park in a poor town as a kid and in a bad neighborhood of Baltimore as an adult – on top of spending a fair amount of time in bad neighborhoods in DC and Baltimore working as a land surveyor and working the door of a club in a sketchy area of Baltimore.

            I don’t think Zimmerman sensed shit. He couldn’t explain to cops where to find him in a neighborhood with three streets. In less than four minutes, he managed to lose track of the kid and get ambushed and beaten to a point where he was magically able to pull his gun and defend himself, if you believe his version of events. That’s not a man who has awareness of much of anything.

            In stating that Zimmerman was a bad actor, there is no assumption being made about Martin. You can have more than one bad actor in a situation. But that’s ultimately irrelevant, because Zimmerman was the instigator.

          • wiseoldsnail

            he didn’t get ambushed. there is zero evidence of an ambush. zimmerman threatened martin … listen to the testimony from martin’s friend : they were on the phone when martin was telling zimmerman ‘get off me’

          • bobbiethejean

            Bitch, I grew up in fucking NEWBURGH NY, the 9th most dangerous city in the country. Unless you grew up in one of the few cities considered even more dangerous, you have got NO BUSINESS, NONE, telling me I’m naive and self-righteous.

          • Ted Heistman

            I’m not a bitch, cunt.

          • bobbiethejean

            See, the difference between you and I is that I know I’m a cunt. But I’m not just any cunt. No. I am Queen BitchCunt the Fucknificent! Supreme Ruler of Cuntonia! You, unfortunately, seem to still be wrestling with the fact that you’re an impotent little bitch. Own it! Own that title! Be the best impotent little bitch you can be!

          • Matt Staggs

            See my prior comment. @ted_heistman:disqus and @bobbiethejean:disqus, you guys wouldn’t act like this face to face, I’m sure. Be cool.

          • Matt Staggs

            Chill out with the language, por favor.

          • Matt Staggs

            Let’s take it down a notch, here.

          • wiseoldsnail

            this wasn’t a ‘high crime neighborhood’

            zimmerman is a cowardly paranoid schizoracist wannabe cop, which is what lead him to follow martin. he wouldn’t have followed martin had he not had his trusty handgun, he would’ve called it in an remained safe in his vehicle.

        • Ted Heistman

          My impression of this whole thing is-Martin was a bad kid, he probably was casing houses, he likely had burglarized houses in the area, Zimmerman sensed it. He confronted him, the Kid beat the fuck out of Zimmerman and Zimmerman shot him.

          Why do people have to paint Martin as Theo Huxtable and Zimmerman as a Klansman? Its so fucking stupid. So right its wrong to assume a kid is a criminal because he is black, all well and good. Some how many people than make a leap that no young black kid is ever a criminal. I got news for you…

          • wiseoldsnail

            just like so many ignorant fools, you allow your imagination to muddy your judgement : you have zero evidence that martin was doing anything but walking home, staying outside a few more minutes talking to his friend … then attempting to stay away from the strange man who was pursuing him …

      • VaudeVillain

        It’s certainly wrong to gun them down.

      • bobbiethejean

        He could have followed him in his car or left it up to the police as he was advised to do. Then he would have seen that Trayvon was most likely just walking home to his father’s house. You don’t get to decide someone is guilty of something, confront them, then execute them.

        I don’t care what Trayvon was ever guilty of. I don’t care if he was a horrid little zit. It’s utterly irrelevant to the facts of the case. Besides, if you want to start character assassinating, Zimmerman has even more of a record himself. No one is perfect and we do NOT use that fact as an excuse to run around shooting people.

      • ewop07

        Trayvon Martin was never suspended from school for suspicion
        of Burglary! The kid was suspended from school 3 times! Once for having Marijuana
        residue in a baggie. Wow! The kid smoked weed! How many teenager don’t? The
        second time was for attendance. Wow the kid skipped school a few time! The 3rd
        and last time was for writing Graffiti. There
        are no school records supporting anything having to do with burglary and that
        rumor was put out there to smear this child’s name in an attempt to justify his

        • wiseoldsnail

          thank you . i’m so disgusted with these grown ass ignorant fucks willing to slander a murdered boy’s name in their efforts to celebrate his death at the hands of a cowardly paranoid schizoracist wannabe cop

      • John Bailo

        Florida’s Use of Lethal Force Statutes clearly state it cannot be used against anyone who has the right to be there. Trayvon Martin was walking on his own private property inside a gated community. When Zimmerman left his car with a loaded weapon, to pursue him for no justifiable reason, that is the point at which the crime began. What happened thereafter is of no consequence save to say that Martin ended up killed by the gun of Zimmerman.

        This is why we have laws that increase penalties when say a robber carries a weapon because it adds in an outcome where a person may be killed.

        Zimmerman committed a crime the minute he left his car. Martin was on his own property. The law is clear. Under the jury’s interpretation, every spouse could now use a gun on his estranged wife inside their home and claim “she attacked me first” as the reason for a homicide!

        • wiseoldsnail

          thank you, thank you, thank you

      • wiseoldsnail

        there are right and wrong, responsible and irresponsible, brave and cowardly ways to ‘confront people who are walking around’ … none include hiding one’s own identity, failing to identify oneself, etc.

        zimmerman knew police were on the way. because of that knowledge, and because he would have been absolutely safe had he remained in his vehicle or gone home, what he did was murder.

        in your remote viewing and time travel, were you able to discover how trayvon martin ended up in the position he was found, given zimmerman’s rendition of the incident? thought not.

        burglary is not punishable by death

    • ewop07

      The reason Zimmerman got acquitted is because the prosecution
      was in on it the whole time. I have
      served on jury duty 7 times in my life and I have never heard of a lawyer not
      preparing their witnesses for trial. I am not an attorney but I do have a concealed
      carry license in the south and I could have done a better job prosecuting that
      case. There’s rules that come with having a concealed weapon that if broken
      make carrying concealed at that time illegal. 1. You cannot carry near a school.
      2. You can’t carry in any establishments that have visible signs prohibiting
      firearms. 3. You can’t carry while performing duties that have rules
      prohibiting firearms. There are other rules that I’m not going to bother to
      mention. According to their neighborhood
      watch rules, firearms were prohibited. I have been carrying firearms since 1989
      and got my marksmanship in 1991; it is impossible to get a straight shot while
      struggling with someone on top pounding you. If Martin was on top of Zimmerman
      when he was shot with that 9mm, Martin would have fell on top of Zimmerman
      leaving blood on Zimmerman. It would’ve been a natural reaction for Zimmerman
      to roll Martin off of him leaving Martin on his back. If Zimmerman’s head was
      being pounded on cement, his head would have been busted with lumps on the back
      not abrasions which anyone with common sense would know came from his head
      rubbing on the cement during the struggle.
      Judging by the shot, Martin would have had to been in a standing position.
      The only way the prosecution could have screwed the trial up that bad is if the
      prosecutors were either fresh out of law school with this being their first
      trial or it was intentional. Here’s what I believe happened just by the
      evidences and the 911 calls. Zimmerman
      saw a Young Black teen he didn’t know in the neighborhood. (Remember, Zimmerman
      told the Martin family he didn’t know Trayvon was a kid but during the 911 call
      he described Martin as being in his late teens.) Zimmerman proceeded to call
      911. During the call Zimmerman was following Martin and the 911 operator told
      him not too. Zimmerman told the 911 operator to have the Police call him when
      they get to the development so they would know where to meet him because Zimmerman
      was planning on detaining Martin until the Police arrived which would be
      illegal. Trying to detain Martin resulted in a struggle and fight which Martin
      got the best of Zimmerman. When Zimmerman pulled out his firearm, Martin got off
      of him and started screaming for help. Zimmerman
      shot and killed Martin. I was always taught if you are going to shoot someone
      and there are no witnesses, make sure you kill him because a dead man can’t
      talk and the only story is your story. The sad thing is, Zimmerman’s story made
      no sense and if he was Black and Martin was white that jury would not have believed

      • bobbiethejean

        I won’t go so far as to say they were definitely in on but you make some compelling arguments and quite frankly, I really wouldn’t be all that surprised if it turned out to be true. : Also, I definitely agree that Zimmerman’s story does not add up. I don’t understand how people cannot see that. So many people are willing to believe him without question, it is disturbing really.

        • wiseoldsnail

          it’s beyond disturbing. it’s frightening to know that we are, as a nation, heading in this direction of believing liars, defaming murdered kids, all in the name of ‘law and order’

          this is what four decades of dumbing down of amerikkkans has delivered : ignorant, vacant amerikkkans

          • bobbiethejean

            What bothers me more than anything else is the utter lack of empathy I see in my fellow human beings. I’m afraid that I am surrounded by sociopaths. -____-;

          • wiseoldsnail

            you are, indeed, surrounded by sociopaths, many of whom are in possession of weapons and are paid by you to use them against you

      • wiseoldsnail

        this is the true story

  • James Maxwell Curtis

    Zimmerman is the man, fuck all you haters!

    • Ken Stewart

      You’re either a troll or you have a kneepad allowance.

    • wiseoldsnail

      zimmerman is the man who, so far, has gotten away with murder

  • Calypso_1

    For a few grand, I could have hooked him up with a van load of Ugandan war orphans to rescue.

  • VaudeVillain

    The real problem I have with the shooting and it’s aftermath isn’t what Zimmerman did. Frankly, he might have been right, he might have been telling the truth, and he might have deserved his acquittal. The police who responded, however, should not have simply taken his word for it. That is completely fucking insane. This wasn’t some guy who shot somebody who broke into his home at 2am, it was a guy who shot some kid who was walking down a sidewalk at 7:30pm. No sane cop who actually has any interest in upholding the law serving the public and protecting the innocent could possibly just let Zimmerman walk away from that purely on his own word.

    Whether or not George Zimmerman is a racist who shot Martin simply because of the color of his skin is both uninteresting and completely irrelevant. It doesn’t matter at all. Zimmerman could come out as Grand Wizard of the KKK tomorrow and it wouldn’t mean anything. Honestly, he has claimed that race had nothing to do with it, and you know what, I’m willing to take his word for it; I don’t actually believe him, but if he says it didn’t count, then I’m willing to work off that assumption until such a time as any actual evidence it’s bullshit comes through. He is, after all, the only one who REALLY knows what he was genuinely thinking at the time.

    The real problem is that this strongly indicates that the police, acting in their official capacity, are racists who see nothing wrong with shooting a black kid simply because it seemed like the right thing to do and can’t even be arsed to PRETEND to follow up on a murder when the victim is a Young Black Male. THAT is what is so fucked up. THAT is where I want to see the outrage focused. If the police had arrested Zimmerman then upon further, TIMELY, investigation decided that he had acted with pure intentions in self defense there would be Nothing To See Here. Instead, they let him walk away from the scene, stonewalled for over a month, and allowed the entire thing to become a public circus before they even bothered to look into the case.

    Plus, let’s be honest here: nobody but nobody believes that had it gone the other way, had Trayvon pulled out a gun (maybe the one he had pictures of on his phone? Weird that he would go out to do crime without his gun though, isn’t it?) and shot Zimmerman in the chest the cops would have simply accepted the explanation that he saw a large stranger stalking him and feared for his life and safety so he Stood His Ground. Personally, I’m not sure he would even have had a chance to get arrested and explain himself.

    Does that sound like Justice? Does that sound like Equal Protection Under The Law?

    • echar

      His half whiteness gave him a leg up with the cops. If he was full white, he wouldn’t have needed to go to court, because that’s how it is.

      • VaudeVillain

        I’m not sure that Zimmerman’s race mattered much. He shot Some Black Kid who was Suspicious and Out Of Place. Maybe if he looked like Samuel L. Jackson it would have been a problem, but I really suspect that when they saw who was dead on the ground, they were willing to believe whatever story they were told.

        • echar

          Because he was black, or because the kid had a reputation?

          • Guest


          • VaudeVillain

            Because he was black. If the reputation were really pre-hostumous it wouldn’t have taken over a month for them to bring it up.

  • Hadrian999

    there is a greater chance of me having a 3way with members of akb48 than there is of this being unstaged

    • Jin The Ninja

      idoru have plenty of sexually repressed emotions. i am not sure it is out of the question.

      • Hadrian999

        mere proximity makes it pretty unlikely

  • Casper

    “The cynic in me says that this is Act 1 in the rehabilitation of George Zimmerman’s public image after getting away with murder. From”
    I totally agree. Time for me to project another image now that people see me for who I really am. ” I see your true colors shining through!

  • Liam_McGonagle

    What’s the deal with disqus today? Only one of my five or so comments have posted in the last 3 hours.

  • Tonya-Clay Davis

    It’s odd to me that some of you proposed the SUV rescue as some kind of
    media black ops effort to redeem his reputation, while to me, the media
    coverage from the outset of the incident, through the trial and beyond
    was an effort to build a narrative wherein Zimmerman was clearly the
    villain, and Martin was clearly the victim. It’s an intriguing,
    racebaiting story, which is what they specialize in. To who’s benefit
    would it be to carry on some sort of obtuse PR campaign to redeem a man
    whom they’ve already cast as the evil one? The mainstream media,
    champions of gun control and fomenters of racial strife? I like the “Let
    the cops handle it…” comments. The militarized American police you
    mean? Those psychopaths? Those are the LAST people I’d call.

  • wiseoldsnail

    this is turning out to be a not quite true story, and likely that zimmerman showed up on purpose by listening to police dispatch, plus was called by an officer at that time … ie clued in to come … pr campaign

  • skadhithjassisdottir

    Zimmerman is not white.

    • Andrew


      • skadhithjassisdottir

        So the entire case as presented in the media is manufactured for use as either propaganda or sensationalism. Everything about both Zimmerman and Martin in the American media is set up.

  • Ted Heistman

    such as…..?

  • Ted Heistman

    So why are you saying he was a “prowler” are you racist?

  • moremisinformation

    The ‘police’ did not tell him to ‘back off’. A dispatcher. SUGGESTED he did not need to do that. It’s not the police, it’s not an order, it’s not legally binding. It also could’ve been prevented if, as alleged, Martin didn’t pummel Zimmerman’s nose into the pavement, until he was gurgling blood.

  • Ted Heistman

    prowl (proul)
    v. prowled, prowl·ing, prowls
    To roam through stealthily, as in search of prey or plunder: prowled the alleys of the city after dark.
    To rove furtively or with predatory intent: cats prowling through the neighborhood.
    The act or an instance of prowling.

  • VaudeVillain

    Frankly, Zimmerman’s account doesn’t make any sense given the material evidence on display.

    He claims that Martin initiated the fight, but by his own testimony he was following him and decided to confront him, both of which I would most certainly consider acts of aggression.

    He claims that Martin knocked him to the ground, repeatedly punched him in the face and smashed his head against the sidewalk, but there is absolutely no physical evidence on Martin’s body indicating that he had been in such an altercation (heads are hard, and punching them leaves marks on your hands), nor is there any evidence that Zimmerman suffered more than extremely superficial wounds exclusively to the back of his head. He is not reported to have been acting dazed or incoherent, and responding officers did not see fit to call him an ambulance… he may have scraped the back of his head, and it may have bled profusely (heads do that), but he doesn’t seem to have suffered any real head trauma consistent with a serious beating.

    Zimmerman outweighed Martin by a significant margin, and no evidence has been presented showing that Martin had any particular skill or training in hand to hand combat. Most martial artists I know are solidly of the opinion that simply out-sizing an opponent is a pretty solid advantage, and that between two people of even remotely comparable skill it is generally safe to say that the larger will win a fight.

    Martin ended up dead, while Zimmerman ended up essentially unharmed. Whatever you think Martin might have done, obviously he didn’t.

  • Ted Heistman

    I am too tired to pore through your post and correct what I think is obviously wrong. I will simply take note that people obviously interpret things much differently than I do from the same set of facts.

    I will say I have been poor most of my life and have lived in bad neighborhoods and have seen lots of bad things go down. I’ve worked with ex cons in NYC, I have known criminals, rapists, murders. I have been in fights had my nose broken three times. I’ve been stabbed, had guns pulled on me. I know what it is like to get the living shit beat out of me.
    I fear that since I am on the internet people will doubt my accounts of my experience. Be that as it may experience informs my view of the world.

    I know how to read people. Its saved my life many times. and I see a lot of people reading this waaaaaaaaaaaay different than how I read it. So whatever.

    You see Theo Huxtable being shot by a Klansman, I see it differently.

  • Ted Heistman

    So why do you call him a prowler? Everyone knows he was just a sweet innocent child walking home in the rain when this white supremacist rolled up and shot him for no reason, right?

  • VaudeVillain

    “You see Theo Huxtable being shot by a Klansman, I see it differently.”

    No, I don’t. I see a 17 year-old boy doing something that MIGHT HAVE BEEN suspicious, a 29 year-old man calling the police to report it, then against instructions continue to pursue him, confront him, then shoot him. Where I’m from, if you follow somebody around and harass them, you started the fight, and if you start the fight, you don’t get to escalate to lethal force just because they’re winning. He could have just stayed in his car and waited for the actual police to arrive.

    What I find interesting here is that you seem to have formed an opinion of what happened which I would normally expect to hear from somebody who actually witnessed the events in question. Why do you think it is more likely that Trayvon was really up to no good than that he was walking home from the store? Were you there to see his behavior? Do you think that Zimmerman is an inherently reliable witness or sound judge of character?

    I’ve lived in bad neighborhoods too, and I’ve also seen shady things go down. I can see your read as plausible, but I don’t see any clear evidence that it is accurate, and I have serious concerns about the reliability of the people who originated that narrative. The biggest being, of course, that one of them might have been convicted for murder if it wasn’t accurate.

  • mannyfurious

    Here’s the thing, Ted, you’re very often going on and on about all the “bad shit” you’ve seen. I grew up in some of the worst “Barrios” in this country. My wife grew up in Modesto, for God’s sake. And the thing is, even growing up in “bad” areas, it’s not all that difficult to avoid trouble. When you live somewhere, you know which corners, which parks, which stores, which bars, etc. are where shit goes down. You know to be home before 10 o’clock. Hell, you even know WHO are the thieves, who are the killers, who are the momos, etc. You know everything. Your entire world exists within the parameters of your neighborhood. Nothing comes as a surprise. “Oh, Lumpy just got out of prison, I wonder whose house is going to get hit next.”

    So, knowing that, I have to conclude one of several things. Either you exaggerate about your experiences, or you were too naive or stupid to avoid trouble, or you were actively looking for it. The world is a terrible place, but it’s also a place where most black kids wearing hoodies are not actively casing houses to rob.

    There are exceptions. No doubt. Places where violence and degradation are not easily avoidable, but they are few and far in between, and even in those places, the areas are confined to a few city blocks. We’re talking relatively small neighborhoods in South Chicago. Parts of Baltimore. New Jersey.

    Sanford, Florida, I have a feeling, is not one of those exceptions.

  • Ted Heistman

    So do you think Zimmerman punched himself in the face as an alibi?

    First of all I will say this. I choose not to carry a gun for this reason. I don’t want to attract into my life a reason to use it. I do confront people occasionally and I could see this happening to me. To me its almost not worth it. I don’t want to kill anyone even in self defense. But having somebody on top of you beating the shit out of you is way more cavalier of a thing IF YOU HAVE NEVER EXPERIENCED IT.

    Your judge of Zimmerman fighting prowess seems waaaaaaaay off to me. You always assume, all things being equal the person with the highest percentage of body fat wins?

    You just don’t seem to judge this the way I do.

  • moremisinformation

    ‘you don’t get to escalate to lethal force just because they’re winning.’

    Even if ‘winning’, includes, as suggested by Zimmerman, a beating against the concrete to the point of blood gurgling, preceded by the comment, ‘You’re gonna die tonight’.

  • Eric_D_Read

    RE “Where I’m from, if you follow somebody around and harass them, you started the fight, and if you start the fight, you don’t get to escalate to lethal force just because they’re winning.”

    So if I see someone decides I look suspicious and they come up to me and ask what I’m doing in their neighborhood, I have the right to just kick the shit out of them because they started it?

    That’s some interesting logic you’ve got there.

  • VaudeVillain

    Perhaps a mugshot would have shown if he’d really taken much of a beating. As it stands, I’m left to go with the responding officers’ decision that he didn’t need medical attention. Doesn’t sound like much of a beating to me. If he really did get punched in the face, well, that sucks to be him; a black eye still doesn’t justify pulling a gun, and following some kid around is still a dumb idea.

    Believe it or not, I have been in a couple of fights. It might have been more, but I learned early on that I’m not terribly good at it and that, generally speaking, they don’t have to happen at all. Strangely enough, since I stopped spoiling for them I’ve actually found that my win percentage has gone up dramatically. I also confront people from time to time, occasionally with criminal accusations, occupational hazard. None of what George Zimmerman claims happened jives with any human interaction I’ve ever participated in or witnessed.

    As to Zimmerman’s fighting prowess… if he had no confidence is his ability to take Martin, then he REALLY shouldn’t have been doing the foolish things he did. Pudge or no, he had a few inches and a background in bodybuilding, so the extra mass couldn’t possibly be all fat. Besides, what makes you think that Martin would be any better?

  • wiseoldsnail

    so, do you think martin just randomly walked up to zimmerman and punched him in the face? the evidence, and even martin’s ‘testimony’ via his attorneys, shows that zimmerman was the aggressor, and that martin’s punch in the zimmerman nose was in self-defense.

  • VaudeVillain

    Weird that nobody has claimed he had even the slightest bit of trouble speaking, standing, walking around and doing all sorts of things people just beaten that badly don’t do very well in the moments immediately after the shooting. Gurgling blood? And nobody noticed? Really? And the line? Nobody talks that way.

  • wiseoldsnail

    ‘as suggested by zimmerman’ … doesn’t matter, since zimmerman was proven to be lying about so many things that nothing he has said can be taken seriously

  • Ted Heistman
  • Ted Heistman

    Why do I know way more about this case than you? I haven’t even been following THAT much. Anyway his MMA coach said Zimmerman was fat and uncoordinated with almost no athletic ability. He said he took a few classes but the coach decided to focus on weight loss.

    A guess if you were getting the fuck beaten out of you and had a gun on you you would just lay there and let the guy do what he wanted to you. OK that’s you.

    We just don’t have the same life experience. I mean I have seen people get really close to getting beaten to death. Its not the same as some middle class kids in the school yard. I had fights during football practice. I don’t even count that.

    I am talking about street violence. People getting fucked up.

  • wiseoldsnail

    it wasn’t only the officer’s decision. zimmerman didn’t want medical attention, and when a nurse did look at him, she found no serious injuries commensurate with his claims.

  • Liam_McGonagle

    I wish the media were portraying this as a ‘WTF do you expect to happen when you allow dumb*sses to go running around the neighborhood with a loaded gun like they was John Wayne?’ thing instead of a race thing.

    But I think Stevie Wonder, Jay Z and all that boycotting Florida is the right response. What has to be impressed upon the savages of that state is that while they may be able to manipulate their court system to corrupt justice it won’t go unnoticed, and that nobody worth a damn will ever want anything to do with a sh*thole like Florida ever again.

  • wiseoldsnail

    that’s not what happened

  • Ted Heistman

    I think burglary is kind of a problem and calling the police after your home gets broken into is not really a solution.Living in a fortress kind of sucks too, so what is your solution? Boycotting Florida. OK.

    To me neighborhood watch seems like a good idea, but then armed vigilantes is a problem too. But really what do you think happened in the days before Police Forces became so prominent in modern life? People would take justice into their own hands. They would take turns keeping watch. They would eventually get rid of the problem.

    Its a tragedy that Martin got killed but its not like some random thing from where I am sitting. It seems to me like a case of cause and effect. Kid breaks into houses, the locals get up in arms, police aren’t solving the problem, the school isn’t solving the problem, kid ends up dead. Would be have been better off in Jail? Would that have turned his life around? Its hard to say. Probably not. I think people can have a change of heart and can turn their life around but they don’t always do it. He strikes me as a kid going as fast as he could down the wrong road. Could I be wrong? Yes, but so far nobody has presented a reason to see it otherwise. Everyone seems to know exactly how they can solve the problem. I remain skeptical.

    Still, I don’t carry a gun, even though I lived in Wisconsin for many years and could have done so legally. The reason why is I wouldn’t want to have a reason to use one. I don’t think I have the right to execute people. In a way I think these two people were on a collision course. I think people can attract situations into their lives. I have had groups of black teenagers harass me at night while riding my bike through the projects. City planners in Madison put the Bike trial right through there. If I had a gun on me maybe some bad shit would have gone down.

    So what did I do? I came to avoid that whole area. There is a reason why people end up in a shitty area with nobody wanting to help them. Its partly self imposed I am afraid.

  • Eric_D_Read

    No doubt GZ comes off as not being the best guy for the job of neighborhood watch, but why exactly do you think some major corruption of justice occurred?
    I followed the trial proceedings quite closely and it seemed to me like a pretty standard case of self defense.

  • bobbiethejean

    Oh yeah, that looks terribly life threatening. That poor man.

  • wiseoldsnail

    zimmerman didn’t get what he deserved for what he was doing … yet …

  • Liam_McGonagle

    Ted, I truly believe you think you’re right, but you really couldn’t be more wrong here. I mean, supermegabadly wronger than I ever thought it would be possible for anyone to be and not feel total shame for.

    In the U.S., we (supposedly) require proof beyond a reasonable doubt when someone is convicted of a crime. Yet you totally approve of Zimmerman carrying out a death sentence on Martin unilaterally without so much as a sham trial.

    You turn the fundamental principles of our so-called justice system on their head. Now the burden of proof in capital cases is to prove that the defendant DIDN’T commit a crime?

  • wiseoldsnail

    wow. just how many times will you post inaccurate information to excuse your opinion? the local cops had made arrests in the recent robbery cases … or at least one arrest.

    i could ride a bicycle down that bike path and make friends along the way. think about that. i’m an old white woman. i could do that because i wouldn’t be entering the zone with a superiority complex, looking down my nose at those people ‘in a shitty area with nobody wanting to help them.’

    i’ll tell you another difference between us : i understand how a history of genocide, racism, and slavery has brought us to where we are now, and i take as much responsibility to reverse those effects as i can on a daily basis.

  • Ted Heistman

    I don’t expect you to have read all of my comments on here but I explained how I have learned how to avoid trouble and why I would not have put myself in this situation.

    So I gues your position is “Yes, he was a burglar, but there was no way Zimmerman could have know that, so therefore he was a racist vigilante”

    Whatever. The only difference between you and I is I give Zimmerman the benefit of the doubt of being at least as smart as a dog. Dogs can tell whose up to no good.

  • Adam’s Shadow

    “My wife grew up in Modesto, for God’s sake.” 209!

    “When you live somewhere, you know which corners, which parks, which stores, which bars, etc. are where shit goes down.” That about sums it up… the easiest way to win a fight is to stay out of one, and the easiest way to stay out of a fight is to always be aware of your surroundings.

    I have a variety of feelings about this case, but one thing that stands out to me, as a life-long California resident, is this absolutely ridiculous “stand your ground” law in Florida: in what world do you get to pull a gun on someone just because they beat the shit out of you? I have had my ass beat before (and vice-versa), have had a knife pulled on me several times (but never stabbed), and have also been around full-blown gang shootings (so much for being aware of your surroundings), and in at least a couple of those situations, I had access to a legal firearm. Not once did I think of pulling out my gun, not even the drive-by shootings; I kept my head down and called the cops after the gunshots stopped and people started screaming.

  • Liam_McGonagle

    I don’t even think that’s the point, in my opinion.

    If the standard is that a person is justified in using whatever means necessary to defend himself, and we define a defensive encounter as beginning with he first moment someone has reasonable basis to believe he is in danger of his life, Martin would have been 1,000% percent justified in pounding the living p*ss out of Zimmerman.

    Zimmerman got scared basically by his own shadow. Absolutely no tangible evidence of any kind was ever presented to show that Martin had done anything heretofore more offensive than buy a bag of candy at a local convenience store.

    So Zimmerman pulls out a gun, and against the police department’s explicit orders, follows Martin with a drawn weapon.

    So who started what here? We’re expected to be totally cool with f*ckin’ morons running around, stalking people with loaded guns because they’re afraid of their own shadows? We should turn logical completely on its head and say Martin had no right of self defense?

    Florida’s thinking is so f*ckin’ backward I think we should just wall off the whole f*ckin’ thing and let them shoot each other to death. They’re hopeless savages with no common sense or respect for law. Good riddance.

  • Eric_D_Read

    “In the U.S., we (supposedly) require proof beyond a reasonable doubt when someone is convicted of a crime.”

    “Now the burden of proof in capital cases is to prove that the defendant DIDN’T commit a crime?”

    The burden is always on the accusers, which is exactly why Zimmerman walked.

  • Ted Heistman

    No that’s not my position. I said I wouldn’t do what he did but that I am not shocked or outraged that it happened and I don’t frankly understand the shock and outrage.

    I wouldn’t carry a gun nor go around making citizens arrests. I am just not shocked that this kid ended up getting shot. He seems like the kind of kid that would end up getting shot, based on the fact that he was a wannabe thug suspended from school on being suspected of burglary. I said before I don’t carry a gun because I don’t want to attract into my life a reason to use it. I think these two people attracted each other. They were on a collision course.

    People seem to be outraged, that even though it turned out he was a bad kid up to no good, he COULD have been an innocent kid just walking home.

    To me I think Zimmerman read the situation correctly, that this kid was casing houses. He wanted to stop the burglaries.

    He was unprepared to take control of the situation but he did have a gun. So after getting beat up he ended up using it.

    Everyone claims to know exactly how it should have been handled, b y the police, while at the same time, these same people post here that the police are no good they are all corrupt, power hungry etc. Yet if anything bad happens you should hand everything over to them

    I don’t claim to be RIGHT or have THE ANSWER about anything.

  • wiseoldsnail

    thank you

  • Liam_McGonagle

    GZ initiated the crisis. If he hadn’t brought a gun, as he is encouraged to under SYG, it would have simply been the matter of a fist fight.

    Noses get broken, but they heal. Provided a person doesn’t get shot to death in the interim.

  • wiseoldsnail

    ah, how about the fact that zimmerman wasn’t even arrested for weeks, the crime scene was not studied properly so evidence was lost, the original investigator wanted to arrest zimmerman and was prevented from doing so …

    the ‘standard case of self-defense’ is martin’s. he was being stalked, was frightened, the person stalking him did NOT identify himself … then the person stalking threatened, and martin fought him off … you’re correct : self-defense by martin, punishable in amerikkka by death and defamation.

  • Liam_McGonagle

    Right. Which is why Trayvon is dead. Because Zimmerman DIDN’T suspect him of a crime.
    Can you please pick 1 position and stick to it?

  • wiseoldsnail

    because he murdered his accuser

  • mannyfurious

    Zimmerman was an idiot. That’s a fact.

    What surprises me most about your responses is that you’re typically one of the people who “gets it.” It’s best not to go looking for trouble. Yet, Zimmerman was doing exactly that. Looking for trouble, and someone died because of it.

    There’s no real evidence Trayvon was a burglar. All the reports I’ve seen asserting as much have come from conservative websites, which, you know, are totally reliable sources of news. But even if he were, Zimmerman had no idea if that were true. He just assumed as much. That’s a really terrible way to go about “protecting” your neighborhood.

  • wiseoldsnail

    no, martin wasn’t a burglar. why do you keep saying this?

    zimmerman outed himself as racist in his comments to the 911 operator, grouping martin with ‘they’ who ‘always get away’ … calling him a coon, etc …

    if zimmerman was as smart as even a dog, he’d have stayed in his car and awaited help. he wanted to be a hero in the eyes of his neighbors … pathetic

  • Eric_D_Read

    How did he initiate it? Is following someone legally considered assault where you’re from? Because that’s the only certainty in this situation.

  • Eric_D_Read

    I have. A dead body doesn’t automatically = murder or manslaughter, and no one disputes Zimmerman killing Martin.

    Unless you believe there is no such thing as self defense.

  • Ted Heistman

    You seem to have very selective views on this. I don’t have this irrational visceral reaction against conservative news sources that you seem to. Probably because I am a libertarian and not a Liberal democrat nor a Conservative Republican I am used to having to filter through noise to find signal.If a conservative news site posts pictures from his cell phone, pictures texts and facebook conversation reavealing his thuggish drug making/dealing activity, DXM, “lean”etc. if they post information about his suspension from school for burglary, I don’t merely throw it away. If its true the source doesn’t matter. I think rather than all of these sources spreading pure lies, they are rather painting a picture of Traayvon certain people don’t want to see.

    I don’t think its realistic to portray him as a 12 year old boy either.

    But maybe he was just dabbling in being a thug, maybe he was caught up in idolizing gang life, and it was merely a phase he would have grown out of. But you know, plenty of kids are a thug at 17 and aren’t going to be anything else. I think really these Thugs don’t exist in a vacuum. In a more intact society, where people have more power and freedom and police their own communities there would be no place for them.

    As far as Zimmerman I think he pretty much fucked up his job as a Neighborhood watch. I don’t think killing a 17 year old juvenile delinquent is any kind of success. I do think the kid was casing homes and I think being a watchman, Zimmerman picked up on it. I think this Media circus is about keeping people from doing their own security. That’s the propaganda. Better let the Police handle everything. Let your house get broken into, be assaulted, get mugged get robbed get car jacked, be passive, be helpless and call the police afterwards. The police are the grown ups, only they can handle this stuff. If its too scary to have all these violent criminals around, then the only solution must be to increase the Police Force! Make the Laws stricter! Make controls tighter!

    And this is pretty much the message coming from the Left wing, fans of Government.

    But really the State has for the most part monopolized self defense, criminals operate outside the State, everyone else needs to operate from within the State. That’s the message. I think for every Zimmerman, getting beat up before fatally shooting a 17 year old, there are people who could be doing it right, taking control of their own communities doing their jobs as men and protectors of their homes and not just giving away all their power to the State to live like slaves.

    I think that is part of the allure of criminality, breaking free of the machine and taking back your own power that has been alienated from you. But there is a middle grown too, of being a Free Society of Adults who take care of themselves and make their own decisions.

    The State would like it to remain more clear cut: Slaves inside the State and criminals outside, with nothing in between.

  • mannyfurious

    That was a lengthy reply, and I actually don’t disagree with a lot of it, but there are a couple of points that stick out to me that I’ll address briefly.

    1. I don’t consider myself a “liberal” or a “conservative” or anything else for that matter. There are a number of different “-isms” that I find intellectually stimulating, but I try not to adhere to any one way of looking at things, precisely for the reasons you mention. If I wander around the world with “Marxist” or “socialist” or “Libertarian” assumptions, those assumptions are going to color how I see everything. I prefer to keep some degree of objectivity in how I view things. I’m not perfect, but I try to be as open minded as possible.

    2. Trayvon was not suspended for burglary. He was suspended for tardiness and for being in possession of a bag with marijuana residue. During one of his suspensions, some media outlets have reported that he was found to have a “device” known to be used in burglaries, but that was never substantiated and what exactly the “device” was was never clarified.

    3. For several months in high school, I once walked around with a weed pipe in my backpack as well as a lock pick. This despite the fact that I didn’t really smoke weed and I had never burglarized anything. I didn’t even know how to use the lock pick, but I kept it with me “Just in case.” Teenagers have a tendency to be morons, so even if he had a “device” that has been used in burglaries, we don’t know what the context of that is. The point is, by the time I was 17, I had two tattoos, a backpack with a weed pipe, a lock pick and I had been suspended from school several times. But other than underaged drinking, I had never committed a crime in my life, and generally tried to avoid trouble. But you see how easy it would be to paint someone like me as a “thug.”

    3. Since when are schools infallible facilitators of truth and justice, anyway? Are you going to tell me you never got suspended from school you little thug? I seem to remember some of your posts–which I agreed with– suggesting that perhaps many of the “bad” students were just students with different strengths and attitudes that were stifled and simply incongruent with the culture and norms of a traditional schooling environment. My, your tone has changed pretty quickly, hasn’t it? Now, suddenly, any kid who gets suspended from school is a “thug.” Perhaps it’s not me who is exhibiting selective views on this issue, after all. If smoking pot and getting suspended from school were indelible marks of “thuggish” behavior, I have a feeling three-quarters of disinfo would qualify for such a label. You don’t strike me as a racist, but I have a feeling that if it were some white kid who got suspended from school for smoking weed, you wouldn’t be referring to him as a thug or suggesting that, at the very least, he was flirting with the idea. My feeling is you’d be writing posts about how the school system sucks and has failed the kid on some level.

  • emperorreagan

    The State has always monopolized the use of force. It was a feature of English common law and didn’t change with founding of the US. The only thing that really has changed running down from the Greeks ruminating on the nature of the state to now is that the law extends exceptions such as a right to self-defense or the castle doctrine to more classes of people.

    As long as there is a state, it will monopolize the use of force. If one ventures outside of the prescribed bounds and is caught doing so then one will find themselves in conflict with the state’s apparatus.

    Criminality, too, is a feature of the state. Those who violate the laws of the state are criminals. Without a consolidation of power in the form of the state, criminals don’t exist as there aren’t laws to violate. One might expect to be shunned, expelled, or killed for violating the norms of a tribal group, but that’s not really the same as being a criminal and violating some set of strict codified laws.

    Slavery is more related to coinage than notions of self-defense. The state requires you to pay taxes in the form of its currency. You are thus not free to pursue your own labors. The state also partitions the commons into private property (which is also subject to taxation and the cycle of earning the state’s currency to give back to it), so there is no chance to opt out without choosing to be a criminal (subject to laws involving trespass, vagrancy, etc.).

  • wiseoldsnail

    he wasn’t suspended from school for burglary, and was never convicted of any crime. talking to you is like talking to a brick.

    zimmerman will never have another ‘free’ day in his life, and for that i am grateful. i hope he lives long enough to serve time in federal prison and pay restitution to martin’s family … i also hope he dies the very next day after doing these things.

  • Ted Heistman

    is anybody a thug? Do thuggish black teens exist? Is violent crime among young black youth, 16-20 years old, is that like a myth? You know like the myth that all jews carry a bag of diamonds? Is it just a ridiculous thing racists think but has no basis in reality?Are thugs like unicorns or something? Anyway, I’ve met quite a few and had bad experiences with them. He strikes me as a kid that was trying as hard as he could to be one. Maybe there is a Rorschach type test with this kid. Personally I don’t like Thug black kids I don’t like white kids that want to be thug black kids. I don’t like Gangster rap, and the glorification of criminal culture that goes with it. I have seen young black teens do some really bad things. But yeah I have met white men who have done really bad things as well, such as rape women and gang rape other men, stomp on peoples heads and knock out all their teeth. So bad people are out there and I avoid them.

    There is something about me to that causes thug black dudes to single me out in ways that other people maybe don’t get singled out. I know a lot of wimpy white guys don’t often have the problems I do. Just like a white person that is sheltered and doesn’t know a lot of black kids might over react to some normal school kid wearing a hoodie, a lot of black people think I am a mean redneck and that I own guns and listen to country music. I have worked in some pretty Ghetto areas and had black people tell me that. They have this whole preconceived notion about me.

    Maybe I seem like I am a threat to them. If I was some nerd with no upper body strength, I could just be below the radar. But I am not below the radar. I get sized up, interviewed, get my boundaries tested.

    I go through this shit a lot whenever I am in a poor black area with thuggish black dudes walking around. So over time I kind of lost sympathy for these types. In Madison, there is pretty well defined Ghetto, and you if you are white and you drive by there on the Bike trial the black kids will through rocks at you, the older ones might block the path and fuck with you even more. It like the are in training to be little thugs. Its like they are saying “send me to jail! I can’t get there fast enough!”

    And its a shit hole, and there are community centers and people working with these kids and basically all the liberals in Madison think the only problem there is racial prejudice of whites towards them. They bear no responsibility for anything. To me that’s racist to say “they can’t help it”

    I just had a sense a while back if I had a gun I would end up shooting some black thug who decided to hone in on me like they tend to do. So I decided never to carry one. And as far as fighting with one there is nothing in that for me either. They are the only ones with something to prove. But I would intervene to save another persons life, and I have.

    I just don’t see Theo Huxtable when I look at this kid. I have known plenty of black people that I got along fine with. I had a black Stepfather for a while, worked in this ministry with lots of black folks and got a long with certain black NCO’s in the Army, but thug black dudes I have never gotten along with and its mostly them. I first met these types in the Army and they are the ones that took an immediate disliking to me. I was fine with them initially.

    So if there is some type of category of racial bigotry that only applies to disliking thug black dudes I have it and I can live with it.

  • emperorreagan

    Everyone who spends time in fringe and bad areas gets the criminal interview from time to time. Whether it’s asking to bum a cigarette or if it’s coming in aggressive and fucking with you, it’s all towards the same end.

    In Baltimore, you can count on some nerdy Hopkins kid with no upper body strength getting killed every couple of years and plenty of muggings/assaults because the walk between the university and the train station passes through some bad areas. They’re not getting a pass.

    I’d venture to guess that if you’re getting the interview all of the time, it’s probably because you’re either clearly uncomfortable/on edge or appear oblivious to what’s going on, not because you’re threatening. Much more appealing to the ego to imagine that you’re such a threat that people have to fuck with you, though.

  • wiseoldsnail

    most cops are thugs .

    this : ‘I don’t like Thug black kids I don’t like white kids that want to be thug black kids.’ is some purely racist shit. even when you acknowledge the possibility of a white kid acting thuggish, you use a black kid to describe the white kid.

    your constant return to ‘theo huxtable’ really shines a light on your incapacity for original thought.

  • The Well Dressed Man

    I can relate to your experience, having grown up White in a Black neighborhood. There can be such a potential for misunderstanding when young men try to talk across the color boundary. Tending bar in hip hop clubs gave me some more perspective. Places with conspicuously armed security. Lots of brothers would try pull the thug act with me, and I stopped taking it personally. There were always Black people who were really good to me too. I also noticed that the guys who were genuine gangsters were almost always especially courteous. I feel like the “race” cards are stacked in such a way that folks are going to question my authenticity, and there’s not much I can do about it but treat each individual with as much respect as possible and expect this to be taken as a sign of strength. That, and minding the reality that showing my face alone in certain neighborhoods makes me a target.

  • Ted Heistman

    Ok thanks, your awesome. I clearly have a problem in that I don’t like criminal thugs.How can I be helped is there hope for me? Maybe I could witness a murder and not be a “snitch” would that help? How can I develop more of a love for criminal thugs? Do I have to love them or should I just acquiesce to them out of cowardice? What’s your secret?

    For example if you saw a person being beaten to death what would you do? Call 911 and hope that all the stomps to the head won’t kill him before the police arrive or don’t arrive?

    If you see a young girl being harassed by thugs what do you do avoid eye contact and keep to yourself? Enlighten me.

    You know, the option was available to me to just go with the bandwagon but I thought I would be honest. I am perfectly capable of sticking to what its proper and politically correct in polite conversation. Just sweep it all under the rug.

    If You are a group of thugs trying to control an area with an aura of intimidation people who stand up are a threat. As far as being a Vic, no I am not. I have not been a victim of violence since I was in my early 20’s. I learned how to defend myself. I really am open to hearing your opinion on how you deal with thugs besides just avoiding them and letting them do what they want.

    I tend to think the existence of thugs reveals a weakness in or national character as a whole. If there were more men there would be fewer thugs.

  • emperorreagan

    You’re, thus far, not claiming to be going out of your way to protect other people.

    If you’re intervening in a situation, you know exactly what you’re getting into. If you live in that shitty neighborhood, you also know exactly what the repercussions may be for intervening.

    But that’s not what you stated. You said, “I get sized up, interviewed, get my boundaries tested.” And your reasoning is because people think you’re a threat, not because they look at you and see someone they can fuck with.

  • wiseoldsnail

    you just switched gears from calling kids who don’t like your white ass ‘thugs’ to talking about actual crimes being committed. stick to the subject : your racist, incorrect statements about trayvon martin.

  • Ted Heistman

    Yes I am saying that. You obviously aren’t going to engage what I actually have to say. OK so great, all white victims of black crime are guilty (because why else would they be assaulted?)and all black victims of white crime are innocent…because anything to the contrary would be racist. Why actually think when ideological heuristics can take the place of that?

    I should have known better to get involved in a discussion like this where emotions and ideological blinders are high.

    So whatever. No point in hashing this out here anymore.

  • emperorreagan

    I am engaging exactly what you said. Direct quote from your post, prior to your additional edit.

    Here’s another direct quote from your post, “There is something about me to that causes thug black dudes to single me out in ways that other people maybe don’t get singled out.”

    If you’re intervening in situations with “black thug dudes” engaged in criminal situations then they’re not singling you out – you have explicitly made yourself a threat. No mystery there.

    I have not commented on race once here. Frankly, if you read through the comments on this thread, you’re the one hung up on race with talk about klansman versus Theo Huxtable and black thugs. Between that and the hang up on questions about this case representing some broader attack on the right to self-defense? Who, exactly, is hung up on ideological heuristics here?

  • wiseoldsnail

    your comments are in a decidedly downward spiral … no value to the content … you’re only repeating yourself : that you are superior, that anyone who checks you out and tests you is a thug, blah blah blah

  • Ted Heistman

    Yeah, well I can read people and other people can read me too. Maybe like you say I am just a big pussy and get singled out for being so scared or maybe I look like the kind of person that might not let them get away with stuff. So show me where I am in the wrong. This kid looks to me like a thug, gold teeth, posing with his gun, and waving cash around like a gangsta, but you weren’t we all thugs at 17? Boys will be boys right? I mean haven’t we all broken into house and stolen jewelry? To me the answer would be no. But maybe I am way off base. Is it possible to be a thug at the tender age of 17? Do 17 year old thugs exist? What are the characteristics of a 17 year old thug and how is Traayvon Martin the polar opposite of that? Also should people allow criminals to have a free run of everything until the cops arrive? I witnessed a person being beaten, on the ground being stomped by four gangster looking Jamaican dudes and instead of standing back and watching and calling 9/11 I jumped in and intervened, and pussy that I am god damn it if these 4 big guys didn’t back off?

    I am not claiming omniscience here, just saying that is my impression.
    And while I am saying I don’t get along with thugs, I could be lying. So, yeah be skeptical. And call me a pussy. Say the only reason thugs don’t like me is because I am a pussy and scared of them. Sure. Maybe I have thugs all wrong. Maybe I should aspire to be one. Maybe pimping, drug dealing and robbing people is the way to go. Maybe its positive for Criminals to be role models. Maybe I have it all wrong. Maybe Gangsta Rap is a force for good.

    I am definately open to being wrong.

  • Ted Heistman

    All in all I feel bad about how this turned out. I don’t mean to come off as an asshole. Or maybe I do but then feel bad afterwards. Either way, I don’t think this conversation went well. I am sure you are a perfectly fine person and we simply disagree. I will agree that the shooting was a tragedy, one that plays out altogether too often and like I said this is why I don’t like guns.

  • emperorreagan

    I don’t mean to come across as an asshole, either.

    And I’ll cop to being somewhat myopically anti-Zimmerman because one of the few issues of debate that actually inflames my passion is competence. I see him pursuing a course of action that he hadn’t developed the competence to pursue.

    I don’t necessarily disagree with some of your other points.

  • wiseoldsnail

    he was never ‘gurgling blood’ … melodrama, much? guess that’s what your moniker is all about : misinformation …

    testimony by the nurse who treated him said zimmerman had no serious injuries at all … also no nose into pavement

    wanna try a few more lies out of your own very twisted imagination?

  • wiseoldsnail

    sounds like exactly what zimmerman was doing : prowling

  • wiseoldsnail

    again with the stealing of jewelry … was he convicted? no. so, your underhanded insults of a murdered teen reveal the truth about you. no wonder you’re targeted.

  • wiseoldsnail

    you’re still, in your mind, starting your version of this story in the middle. you’ve repeatedly failed to acknowledge that this fight began when zimmerman presented himself as a threat to martin by pursuing him, by not identifying himself, etc …

    the story doesn’t follow your imaginary line beginning with ‘martin was beating the shit outta zimmerman’ … there is a reason martin would have struck zimmerman, one being zimmerman brandished his gun … ever consider that?

    whether he did brandish his gun, we’ll never know, because he MURDERED the only witness who knows. what we do know is that zimmerman made himself a threat to martin, and martin said as much to his friend on the phone … that he was getting freaked and stressed by this weirdo following him.

  • wiseoldsnail

    why are you so quick to believe all zimmerman did was follow? and following with intent to prevent a person’s free travel is, indeed, a crime.

  • wiseoldsnail

    not outraged that a grown man killed a teen out of fear and loathing …

    and again … the continued repetition of lies : martin was not ‘suspended from school on being suspected of burglary’ .. this is a bold faced lie which you’ve repeated many times.
    it’s illegal for a school to suspend a student on suspicion of anything at all … he was suspended for stupid shit, which is part of a nationwide practice which is applied to black students in a documented racist manner.

    you aren’t right, and seemingly have no answers about anything. you are wrong. you are wrong for not being outraged about this shooting. you are wrong for repeatedly posting lies about a murdered teen. you are wrong for spouting racist shit.

  • wiseoldsnail

    many of us here understand that trayvon martin punched zimmerman in his disgusting face because zimmerman was presenting himself as a threat : that fulfills the definition of self-defense

  • Ted Heistman

    Yeah, I mean That’s really my only point that my own personal experience must count for something. Its not being racist to point out this behavior and how common it is. Not everyone that ends up in jail was framed by white supremacist police.

    When I was in the Army a black NCO voiced the opinion that there was more camaraderie between blacks and whites in the 70’s then when I was in there in the 90’s. I was unprepared for it as an 18 year old kid, having come from a fairly middle class area. I was used to having a few black kids in school whom I got along with, and with whom everyone else got along too in mostly white schools.

    Then when I was in Basic training I met a lot of young black guys that hated white people and kept to themselves, they bragged about having been in gangs and so forth, which might have been partly bullshit, but some of it I think was true.Some of them got kicked out for smoking crack.I knew one guy that was actually a pimp while he was in the Army.

    I think at some point in black culture it became kind of a thing where, to be genuinely black you need to be at least somewhat of a criminal, at least walk talk, act like a criminal, or else you are acting white.

    This whole white/black thing is weird. Its likes these alchemical designations. It doesn’t really describe skin color. Its set things up to where white and black culture have to be opposites. One has to be above board, law abiding, Apollonian, the other is underground Dionysian, more sexual, physical irrational.

    Its a really strange phenomenon and both sides of racial divide seem to buy into it and do their end of the dance.

    In other countries, there might be racial or ethnic tensions, but not the black/white thing.

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