Richard Dawkins Defends ‘Mild Pedophilia’

roflbot(2)So it turns out that he and some of his religious opponents do have something they agree on.

Via HuffPo:

Richard Dawkins, one of the world’s best-known and outspoken atheists, has provoked outrage among child protection agencies and experts after suggesting that recent child abuse scandals have been overblown.

In an interview in The Times magazine on Saturday (Sept. 7), Dawkins, 72, he said he was unable to condemn what he called “the mild pedophilia” he experienced at an English school when he was a child in the 1950s.

Referring to his early days at a boarding school in Salisbury, he recalled how one of the (unnamed) masters “pulled me on his knee and put his hand inside my shorts.”

He said other children in his school peer group had been molested by the same teacher but concluded: “I don’t think he did any of us lasting harm.”

“I am very conscious that you can’t condemn people of an earlier era by the standards of ours. Just as we don’t look back at the 18th and 19th centuries and condemn people for racism in the same way as we would condemn a modern person for racism, I look back a few decades to my childhood and see things like caning, like mild pedophilia, and can’t find it in me to condemn it by the same standards as I or anyone would today,” he said.

He said the most notorious cases of pedophilia involve rape and even murder and should not be bracketed with what he called “just mild touching up.”

Keep reading.

203 Comments on "Richard Dawkins Defends ‘Mild Pedophilia’"

  1. bsackamano | Sep 11, 2013 at 10:39 am |

    These Luciferians love pedophilia, how else would they get their Monarch slaves and/or human sacrificees? He may have MPD and be a slave himself who knows. There is so much evil out there, but at least we can have knowledge of who, at least some of it is coming from in the modern world and have a record of it.

    • Your mind was controlled to make you post that comment.

    • SimonFraser4 | Sep 11, 2013 at 11:52 am |

      There is no evil in the world. There are good people and there are confused people. If you’re really worried about Satanists, there’s a good chance you’re one of the confused people. As a species, we’ve got bigger problems than your perception of evil.

      • Theres two kinds of people in this world…. Those who think there are two kinds of people in this world, and those who know better… ;-]

        • There are many accurate ways to divide the human race in two. Combine them all and you have billions of kinds of people.

      • Where do you base your idea that there is no evil in this world ? have you been living under a rock in the desert somewhere ?

        look into history or even at the world today . you tell me that a war criminal , a serial killer, or the guy that might stab you to death for your wallet or not liking your face is just confused?

        all this newage false relativist positivism crap is really sickening. you think that we should think non-dualistic ? everything is ok, as we are one consciousness and everything is love in confusion ?

        • SimonFraser4 | Sep 15, 2013 at 2:36 pm |

          Yes, I’m basing my idea on the underside of a rock, specifically a rock from the Gobi Desert. Good guess.

          Yes, those one-dimensional examples you provided are confused, either through chemical imbalances in their brains or environmental imbalances in their development as human beings. But it seems like you don’t want to go too deep into that so I won’t burden you.

          I know it’s easier to see the world in binary. For starters, you don’t have to count as high. And there’s a lot less to think about. It’s simple and bite-sized. But it is an antiquated worldview at best. And at worst could lead to an extinction-level event.

          Just like a computer, which also sees the world in binary. Occasionally, a computer hits a logic flaw in its programming and it crashes and you lose all your files. In real world terms, this would equate to a nuclear holocaust. That’s where binary thinking can take us when applied to the real world.

          I didn’t understand all the mumbo-jumbo in your last paragraph. But I know one thing for sure – you’re not evil.

          • stop thinking so simplistically, of course some people behave negatively and agressively due to nurture and physical problems wich affect their thinking processes,

            but there are also people who know exactly whats wrong and right and they choose for the wrong actions to their fellow human beings, and thats the categorie i would call evil.

            i dont know why you are talking about binary computerstuff, and nuclear holocausts , seems like a bunch of mumbo jumbo not to the point to me. and how can you project the computer binary math system to the thinking of persons wich include much more info wich a computer cannot even start to gather, as computers are semi-intelligent by the virtue of the program they got from a human,

            so your try to connect the computer-world to the real world is a fallacy .

          • SimonFraser4 | Sep 15, 2013 at 3:38 pm |

            Good and Evil are simple ideas. You’re espousing them. I’m not. And yet you suggest I’m thinking simplistically? Ummm, no, I’m not. You are.

            Computers speak in a binary language. Good/Evil, Yes/No, On/Off. That is how you are thinking – in binary, like a computer. It’s how most people think. Because it’s easier to wrap your brain around chaos in binary thought, however inaccurate the perceptions it causes may be.

            You call people evil because you lack the understanding to see the subtleties of causality, to see the chains of events that propel human beings into certain actions, to see the multitude of contexts for those actions. And maybe you don’t want to see. Knowledge can sometimes be terrifying.

            But do you think a baby is born evil? Cause I’ll tell you something – that only happens in horror movies. In the real world, there is no evil. There is only people who believe they are doing good.

            Good and Evil are as manufactured as Valentine’s Day (a holiday invented by a greeting card company.) Good and Evil are sales tools used to convince you of something. They’re amongst the oldest tricks in the book.

            Once you let go of Good and Evil, you’ll come to understand where you are on the confusion scale. And then you can start to do actual good in the world, if that’s who you really are.

          • 1. baby’s are not born evil , even though it’s debatable, if you acknowledge reincarnation.maybe hitler has returned ,?

            2. why do you have the need to downplay evil ? is it a protection mechanism for you to not have to deal with the real world ?
            you rather project your safe computerworld model onto reality because it falsely protects you from reality ?

            3. horror movies are a psychological artsy projection and creative outlet for humanity for the evil it has witnessed through the ages. thats why it’s so popular. people subconsciously know reality and the truth. but a lot of them like you choose to be oblivious and fantasize about kumbayaa shit and cosmic conscioussness crap.

          • SimonFraser4 | Sep 23, 2013 at 5:43 pm |

            Okay get off the “computerworld” metaphor; obviously I overestimated its usefulness in explaining my point.

            Good and evil are catchwords designed to sell you someone else’s bullshit. They are inventions, the same way Valentine’s Day was invented to sell you greeting cards. And you totally have the right to buy the bullshit.

            Thank you for invoking Godwin’s Law. Right on time too.

            There’s nothing cosmic about what I’m saying. No one’s dancing around a campfire. The truth is relative to the era you live in. It’s as plain as that. Good and evil are for-profit.

          • i agree that people use words to manipulate others and sell them shit, like the religions with their heaven and hell. like marketing ploy.

            but that does not exclude the possibility that meaning behind those words is still based on tangible situations and realities operating in this world and human society.

            in the animal kingdom, there is cruelty , but for a reason, and the animal has to survive, basically thats how the game parameters are set up.

            But humanity is a more complex being with a neocortex, wich allows for empathy and higher cognitive functioning, and even things we do not know yet. thats the portal to being more then just an animal-mind.

            so we have more freedom and freechoice, and some of us abuse this to gain somtehing at the cost of others.
            thats a reality wich can be deduced by looking around and analyzing the data wich is available in criminal records, wars rapes etc.

            thats what i base my viewpoints on.

            where do you base your viewpoints on ?

    • atlanticus | Sep 11, 2013 at 9:21 pm |

      Blowing your mind now: Vigilant Citizen very likely works for an advertising company whose clients include the very pop stars he “exposes”…have a good night!

  2. herzmeister | Sep 11, 2013 at 10:44 am |

    > “I don’t think he did any of us lasting harm.”

    Well for me with all his rather aggressive mannerisms he *does* come across as someone who’s harmed.

  3. Anarchy Pony | Sep 11, 2013 at 10:46 am |


  4. Ted Heistman | Sep 11, 2013 at 10:55 am |

    I kind of agree with this part: “I am very conscious that you can’t condemn people of an earlier era by
    the standards of ours. Just as we don’t look back at the 18th and 19th
    centuries and condemn people for racism in the same way as we would
    condemn a modern person for racism…”

    I mean this is the thinking behind saying the Founding Father’s ideas were all bullshit because they owned slaves rather than acknowledging that they had some great ideas that were inconsistently applied.

    I condemn kiddy fiddling, but I also think there something to be said for getting over it eventually instead of continually reliving it and thus re-traumatizing yourself.

    Everybody says stupid things once in a while, when you are in the spot light like this guy you just get more flack for it.

    • Yes. I too agree with the sentiment of what he tried to say, but it really came out awfully.

      And like you, I cannot condone with kiddy-fiddling (even the fiddling that took place in the 50’s). H could have drawn the line elsewhere and made his point in a better way.

    • What’s a little hand job between a teacher and student eh? No I am sorry there were people who knew it was wrong back then the same way the founding fathers knew slavery was wrong but couldn’t get rid of it because of how much money it made everyone at the time. The main reason many of these child molesters weren’t reported was the same reason slavery continued and that was because doing things like arresting the teacher would threaten the school/church institutional level. People were not stupid and they knew right from wrong even back then. Don’t make excuses for abusers.

    • Unless, of course one is black. Might be a bit harder to be all, “Hey that was then” if your family ah d been opened and whipped and enslaved, you know. I found an ancestor “owned” someone in 1680 and I’m pretty sure I’m not ok with him doing that today.

      • 1680? You’re barely related to that person in your insanely distant ancestral tree…you have nothing to worry about. Race isn’t a real thing anyway, everyone knows that.

    • You ar e a gentleman of reason, kudos.

    • People deal with molestation in different ways. Some are able to move on while others can’t get past it, letting it destroy their entire adult lives. It’s not a choice either.

      • Ted Heistman | Sep 12, 2013 at 5:11 pm |

        Well Frankly that strikes me as totally defeatist attitude. I say that as someone who was sexually assaulted as a child by 2 different adult caregivers, a doctor and a baby sitter.

        I think many people have been abused way worse than I was but there can be healing. I mean what is the point of living if you can never get past it? I find that hard to believe that there is nothing anyone can do about it.

        • Bruteloop | Sep 13, 2013 at 7:12 am |

          As someone who was abused I totally agree. The only person who can turn it on its’ head is the victim. By no longer being a victim. I think with the amount of information and awareness these days it is almost a responsibility of a victim to do that. Decades ago when they were totally isolated is perhaps a different thing. But, in my family alone, my mother was sexually assaulted as a child, my grandmother who was in service was raped repeatedly and my father brutalised regularly by his father. Of course, there is damage. But allowing the damage to define you entirely years down the line I simply cannot understand. Hell, you get one life. Try not to let anyone rob you of that easily.

          • Ted Heistman | Sep 13, 2013 at 8:26 am |

            That’s exactly how I feel!

          • Logically, everything you’re saying is correct. The victim shouldn’t allow an abuser to re-traumatize them for their whole lives, but again, it’s not as simple as “choosing” for some people.

            PTSD and other mental issues caused by emotional trauma cannot be willed away. They’re as real as a traumatic brain injury and can impair brain function in adulthood. It’s totally possible to improve your coping skills and change your thinking patterns if you’re lucky enough to find a good therapist, but that only goes so far. Biochemical changes in the brain caused by trauma cannot be controlled by all the therapy in the world. How the event affects your brain development depends largely on your unique genetic make up, how long the abuse persisted and at what age it happened.

            Saying that you can change your reaction to things like molestation implies that those who can’t simply aren’t trying hard enough.

            But yes, I totally agree that you should do everything in your power to heal and live a happy life.

          • Bruteloop | Sep 18, 2013 at 10:54 am |

            Absolutely right. I understand that some people cannot recover and that it is different for each person and each scenario. I would in no way criticise someone who has been abused. In my own case it took years, decades to fully grow free and I was lucky to establish relationships with some good, kind, gentle and loving people. However, I also feel there is too little encouragement and support as regards self healing and only focus on the damage done. It is hard to move forward when you can’t see any direction in which to do so. I would write more but Internet connection down and piggybacking on the local pubs signal while I have half an hour spare to catch up on correspondence..!

        • 1. I’m sorry that happened to you and am glad you’ve been able to work through it.

          2. Extreme emotional trauma, especially during childhood when the brain is still developing, causes physical changes in the brain that predispose a person to depression, drug addiction and other serious problems in adulthood. (Studies of foster children have shown that these brain changes can even be passed to offspring epigenetically). Your ability to overcome bad experiences depends heavily on your unique genetic make up, the timing of the incident and how long it went on.

          3. That doesn’t mean it’s hopeless or that victims should quit trying. It just means that people handle things differently. Some of us have a lower threshold for stress. The vast majority of first-time bipolar or schizophrenic episodes are triggered by stress, but not everyone who experiences stress will become bipolar or schizophrenic.

          • Ted Heistman | Sep 17, 2013 at 5:53 pm |

            yeah, I can relate to that. I am pretty sure I had childhood depression and learning disabilities from it, even co-ordination problems. Its been a journey! Thanks

    • No kidding, I’ve said some REALLY fucked up and insane shit in my time, mostly while on alcohol, and nobody wrote an article about it, and zero flack, except from the people around me.

    • why do you downplay it to ”kiddy fiddling” ? it’s just plain old pervert with authority molesting a child under his protection , against it’s will ?

      why call a molester a fiddler ?

      • Ted Heistman | Sep 23, 2013 at 7:39 pm |

        Not intended to offend.

      • Ted Heistman | Sep 24, 2013 at 4:31 am |

        I wasn’t trying to downplay it.

        • ok, my bad for assuming this.
          but also the word pedophilia, wich means in greek , love for children.
          thats a downplay as well. let’s just call it what it is : childmolesting, childrape, pederasty.

          fiddling is something done to a violin, a music instrument.

          a kid is a babygoat.

          so we are conditioned by the words wich are in common use. thats a part of the brainwashing going on.

          • Ted Heistman | Sep 24, 2013 at 7:03 am |

            I was molested as a child and so was my sister. But I hasten to add that none of this was done at the hands of our parents.

            I tend to dislike Dawkins, but I know that being molested by an authority figure, particularly one you may admire, can be very conflicting, so I was trying to be even minded about his statements.

            I think its bad to be abused but its also bad to hate. One thing people don’t understand about forgiveness is that witholding it doesn’t hurt the person who wronged you, it only hurts yourself.

            So my take on Dawkins is that he was fondled/molested by authority figures he admires and hasn’t really reconciled it in his mind. But I don’t think seething with hatred and going on witch hunts to try to root all these people out is the answer either.

            I think there is some of that going on in our society too. Its not good to be fixated on evil. It damages relationships also.

          • i had my share of physical and psychological abuse from parents, and i understand a bit of what you are sayin. i would like to say it takes guts to be so honest about your past on this forum. i commend you for this.

            at first during teenage and adoslescence i was the same, i forgot/forgave and focused on being happy and living for the moment etc. posivitism.

            but at the same time , i felt uneasy all the time, resulting in alchohol abuse and other thing.

            now later in life , approaching 40, i look back and see in my case that i was sugarcoating and literally forgetting things in order to survive and meet demands of society.

            and this does not work in the long term. i think it’s better to call evil as it is , and fuck relationships if they are based on a code of silence.

            and what is forgiveniss really ? i dnot know , its a word people use . the problem is that most uf us victimized tend to forget the severity what was experienced by the child, and we learn to rationalize away as adults. and i believe this creates disharmony in ourselves. i think vengeance and reckoning is a much better way to deal with injustice then forgiveniss, as it can help by becoming a deterrance, and forgiveniss can by some perpetraitors be used as freecard to continue on their evil, destructive path.

            not everyone deserves or can handle being forgiven.

            i had the same tendency, i still think it has to do with stockholm syndrome.

            as every animal in it’s natural ways will defend itself to the death against any compromise of its integrity. we humans have lost too much of the core mammalian instintcts i believe.

          • Ted Heistman | Sep 24, 2013 at 11:07 am |

            I see what you are saying. I think what happens sometimes when you are abused is that you cut yourself off from some of your emotions, like rage and things like that, then after a while you become numb to the fact that you are angry.

            I agree that that is not good. I think what part of that is is a protective instinct to excuse the abuser in your mind so that you won’t be enraged at them, because if you did become enraged it could lead to more abuse, since you are just a helpless little child. Very likely if you lashed out you would get abused more.

            I think as we get older and this comes into our awareness that we excused this abuse, we need to deal with it then.

            I think forgiveness is not that, its not excusing evil, its more about letting go of things you can’t control and letting go of the person being able to make you feel bad.

          • i agree with that it is not healthy or helpful to be enraged day and night about things you cannot do anything about ,
            they have already been happened. and they stopped for most of us as we got older and physical stronger,as most of the abusers are cowards anyway.

            and at a certain time you have to let go of bad past things, thats good if it is really from the core your being , and you have no disharmony in conflicting emotions left in you. then you are ready to move on.

            but the problem sometimes is how to self-assess this point for real ?

            as self-delusion can be pretty strong in the human mind, and the subconsciousness might hide strong counteremotions to what we experience consciously.

            and sometimes it can still be triggered in a good way , if i see the same shit happening to a child, i really cannot take that and would go so far as to punch the living daylights of such a person.

            that tells me i still have the potential for rage, but i see it as a learned a ”firewall” enhancement and sensitivity , wich can be beneficial, to me , and society to correct other abusers.

            i think as long as it gives you inner strength and centers your being firmly grounded from inside out, it’s a beneficial emotion, if it disables you and weakens your true animal spirit, then it is negative.

            and this is for everybody themselves to decide, not for dawkins to project out . thats why i was so pissed of.

            and still a lot of people who think they are allright, still fuck up their life and others en repeat the shit, or commit suicide

            and as we have learned as children to hide our true emotions and learn to Act for the contextual environment in a certain way , we tend to forget and disconnect compeltely from our core being, and operate from a prioxy version of us on the surface level.

          • i wouldlike to add , that dawkins at the age of 72 sadly still has not been able to reconciliate/harmonise his inner soul wiith the unwanted attack on his animal integrity as a child, tells me how heavy of an impact this has been on him,

            i think he , like many of us victimized, is in denial and putting a layer of fantasy on the reality and harshness of the real experience. i am not trying to put him down as a person , but i am trying to uncover the hidden psychological mechanisms wich play in all of humanity, in order to try to redeem ourselves.

            i would like to end with this poem i wrote a few years back,dealing with the child/grownup/society power and abuse structure wich permeates the human race and has for a long while. i wish to see an end to this insanity wich holds us in a terrible grip.


            Accusations Against Mankind

            You disable your children
            You abuse your children
            You mindcontrol your children
            You traumatize your children
            You neglect your children
            You miseducate your children
            You leave your children
            You despize your children
            You sell your children
            You slave your children
            You emotionally scar them for life
            You put fear in ther hearts instead of love
            You kill their spirit

            But you are just you
            Sad thing you have been abused yourselfes
            You felt too weak to break free

            So i cry for you as well
            I know in your hearts you did not want this world
            A soulless world filled with soulles people
            Crying for freedom but living in slavery

            Crying is the first step
            Being your emotions you redeem yourselves
            and behold
            Your Spirit comes to your aid

            You stop being a slave
            Your soul starts to shine bright from
            The inside out

            Finally acknowledging who you truly are
            Reaching out of your shell of trauma
            Flying freely again

            Understanding your predicament
            Feeling strong enough to leave
            The prison behind
            Landing on happy soil reconnecting to humanity

            To the precious youngs, the precious adults and the preciously aged of wisdom,
            Knowing the sacrifice of the plantspirits

            Because of love to creation
            They give us life, Oxygen, food, medicine,
            clothes and a roof over our heads,

            Even the animals play their natural role,
            We are the only ones behaving as psychotic fools,
            We dont need to hurt them,

            At the end we are hurting ourSelf


          • Ted Heistman | Sep 24, 2013 at 4:01 pm |

            That was good. Thanks for sharing that. I think you are probably right about Dawkins.

          • thank you very much, as these poems are communications from my heart , and i hope they can help others like they helped me, we are all from the same source, but not equal, as is decided by our actions and thought patterns,

            i would kindly like to plug this blog, wich has been dealing with these deep issues ,, i hope they might be of use to other people, as they have been to me.


            take care and never leave yourself .

          • And you still can’t understand how you are part of the problem? How YOU are also the “You” of this poem?

            Meditate on this phrase, the one you did not understand earlier, the one you need as much as I or anyone else in this world does: “The world is the way it is because I am the way I am”.

            You are part of the problem in more ways than just your callous, quick-to-judge hatred.

            How many 16 year old girls did you masturbate to this month, Dutchie? How many prostitutes have you hired in your lifetime? Do you really believe that they’re all doing it because they want to? Have you ever heard of sex trafficking? Are you quite sure that those girls didn’t arrive to your country in chains?

            You are in no position to tell me what I should feel about my own experiences, especially while you (legally!) allow such things to go on in your country. You pay for it with your tax dollars and your own dick in your hand.

            Do you know why I would have been better off if I didn’t know what happened to me? Do you know why I wish my mother hadn’t told me, so that I could have filed away bad memories with the Boogie Man and horror movies and nightmares?

            Because than SHIT-FOR-BRAINS like you wouldn’t be able to manipulate my emotions for a cheap laugh. You’re as fucking sick and crazy as everyone else, so you can shove that messiah complex up your own ass and get a mirror.

          • Select Casey | Sep 26, 2013 at 2:53 pm |

            wow, you’ve got some real ants in your pants. Quite the hostile it would seem.

            you might find this useful

          • atlanticus | Sep 28, 2013 at 1:31 pm |


  5. emperorreagan | Sep 11, 2013 at 10:58 am |

    And NAMBLA would like to introduce its latest spokesperson: Mr. Richard DAWKIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIINS!

    • emperorreagan | Sep 11, 2013 at 4:08 pm |

      Sorry down voter. I know what you’re thinking: it’s not Mr., it’s SIR!

  6. Can I file this level of sensationalism as mild sexual abuse?

    • I ask myself this with the hyper sensationalised scandals happening the uk… what is going on? where is the good in giving it inflated psychic presence? we working something out en masse?

  7. Charlie Primero | Sep 11, 2013 at 11:24 am |

    Nice little publicity blast the day before his new book hits the shelves.

    Better run and buy a copy so your fellow cubicle-dwellers will know you are fashionably current when this moral dilemma is discussed in the breakroom Monday.

  8. Is this the origin of the flying spaghetti monster? Was Dawkins touched by a noodly appendage way back when?

  9. am sorry but the article is very stupid, you slander a guy who contributed largely to the removal of the shitty ideologies that are growing like fungi in the world, if someone like Richard is a target for you cheap attempts then you sir should stop posting.
    i am an Arab and now in war zone Syria, and you can find hundreds here who thinks he is a very stable and logical and what he tries to say are worth more value then all of your politicians,religious idiotic characters,actors combined! and have proven to fail and keeps failing until this day.
    am very sure like many times before, you watch the video and find that what he said was cut to fit the stupid disinfo campaign aimed at any intellectual who oppose religion’s herding human sheep and corporate polluting the environment.

    • Eric_D_Read | Sep 11, 2013 at 11:36 am |

      “i am an Arab and now in war zone Syria”
      Then what the fuck are you doing wasting your time following the latest round of the I’m Offended World Championships when there’s important tribal warfare going in in your neighborhood?
      Get to work, pussy.

      • you play too much call of duty, 80% of the shit you watch on TV is a joke, things from other places and shit, yes we have a dictatorship and yeah those muslim sex obsessed allahu akhbar style dudes are here but they are only 5-8K, the national army was 500k and now are 100k and the defects army now is 350k with volunteer count, those numbers are shit, syria is 23 millions, dont be a cunt, cunt.
        wasting my time following disinfo? maybe thats just absurd coming from a guy who just lost his rights and where the NSA spies on his GF in the bathroom, please spare me your BS.

    • No one is denouncing his contributions to science. If anything, this article proves that Disinfo is not some biased site that caters to any one group. They just post things that are weird or get left out of mainstream news.

      Dawkins’ reaction to his own abuse is just that–HIS. It was wrong of him to impose that reaction onto others by saying it’s no big deal. People react differently to traumatic situations. For many victims of sexual abuse, their entire lives are ruined. Some turn to alcohol/drugs, prostitution or even suicide to escape it.

      • yes i agree, i just saw it fit to find someone who done more then speak his peace of mine, am sure you will find plenty of those, maybe take a look at the Bush interview on CNN that never got aired for amusing reasons, or maybe why the US raised the levels of fluoride concentration to the above safety level, just saying 😀

    • this article is not about his otherwork wich might have a real merit, as it has for you.

      but if the shoe fits, this article deals with his idiotic claims about so called ”mild pedophilia” and his comments about other victims.

      it’s not about his deconstruction of illogical false religions, that stands on its own.

      differentiating is necessary , as you cannot approach any individual one-dimensionally , and go for 100% right or 100 Wrong, nobody is like that , everybody is partially wrong and partially right.

  10. Matt Staggs | Sep 11, 2013 at 11:46 am |

    What always amuses me about stories like this is the number of people who come out of the woodwork to either wholly condemn Dawkins and his work or defend both to the death. People aren’t comfortable with the idea that their heroes (or enemies) are neither devils nor saints, but an occasionally discomfiting mixture of these qualities. It is possible to continue to appreciate someone’s work yet still recognize when that person says or does something stupid or offensive, or for that matter, to decry someone’s actions while admitting that the target of hostility isn’t entirely evil. I think it takes a degree of intellectual sophistication to override childish emotion and think with any degree of nuance. Sadly, there will always be those who look for gods who will never, ever disappoint and devils to whom we may point to as a symbol of pure irredeemable evil. I think Dawkins is a smart guy who said something stupid. He’s a human being; a fact that escapes those prone to blind hero worship or demonization.

    • Miss Kitty | Sep 11, 2013 at 12:13 pm |

      Cognitive dissonance

      • jasonpaulhayes | Sep 11, 2013 at 7:36 pm |

        Dick has grapes in his pants but I’m not reaching in there to get them… probably sour and shriveled like raisins.

        I still love you Dick Dawkins.

      • Calypso_1 | Sep 11, 2013 at 8:39 pm |

        Are you describing your own internal experience, applying the term to an unidentified other or incognizant regarding mental cadences of harmonic resolution?

        • Awww, I just KNEW you couldn’t resist commenting to me, as you do with each and every person on here. I’m curious, is Disinformation paying you for all these comments and replys to literally EVERY SINGLE PERSON ON HERE or do you just have zero life? Honestly, it’s like Disinformation is your life. There’s a whole world out there, not just the one in your basement! Have a lovely day!

          • The Well Dressed Man | Sep 16, 2013 at 8:43 am |

            This is how it begins. One forum post at a time, you will be assimilated.

          • I pay Calypso with lentil beans. I offered real money but Calypso fashioned it into odd pieces of “art”. One time Calypso even created a performance piece with the disinfo comment stipend. Every so often I wake from night terrors, recalling the event.

        • 4,281 comments on here, wow, impressive. I never thought someones life could be so meaningless. I mean, do you just get your rocks off while reading the dictionary? Or are you just an insufferable know it all? Hahahahaha is it because I’m a woman, that my opinions don’t matter? Or is because girls like me would never give guys like you the time of day, so you feel the need to try to be intellectually superior at all times? I wrote two words, get over yourself.

          • Calypso_1 | Sep 14, 2013 at 3:16 pm |

            Doors A & C than.

          • atlanticus | Sep 15, 2013 at 2:19 pm |

            “Or is because girls like me would never give guys like you the time of day, so you feel the need to try to be intellectually superior at all times?”

            Gee, 22 from LA, you do think mighty highly of yourself…I suppose there are different standards in La-La Land, but I doubt many people here would be too impressed with a girl who would choose looks over brains. You know though, I find it really isn’t that hard to do both. Are you simply too tired to read after applying makeup?

          • I read all the time, not that I need to explain myself to you lol I just think it’s funny how far people will take online bullying. It’s almost as if you 3 think you’re the smartest people in the world, with the only opinions in the world, and then further feel the need to shove those things down everyone elses throat that you come into contact with… It’s truly sad Charlotte…. making feeble attempts at bullying me because I happen to be attractive, and live in LA. Somehow that equates to being vapid and harbor a hatred for learning? Wow, didn’t know someone could summarize my entire life by doing some simple Twitter stalking. I’m also on Instagram if you’d like to further stalk me sweetie. I can teach you how to do your makeup if you’d like as well. Maybe then you’d stop being a such an intellectually superior heinous wench and get laid so the rest of us don’t suffer. xo

          • atlanticus | Sep 20, 2013 at 7:28 pm |

            How predictable.

            That was not Twitter; it was in your Disqus feed. You do know we can read your other comments from other forums, right? All I had to do was click on your name.

            Which “opinions” did I “shove down your throat”?

            I assume that you don’t take learning very seriously because that’s the premise upon which your initial attack was designed.

            I happen to do professional makeup occasionally, as in, people pay me for my skills. If you really want to play this “who’s hotter” game, why don’t you post your modeling pictures and I’ll post mine?

            Just kidding! I wouldn’t post mine because I have a professional life I’d like to keep separate from my online comments. That’s why grown-ups don’t use their own pictures on the internet, unless they are a media personality of some sort; i.e. their job *is* the internet. You very likely don’t have a real career yet, so you wouldn’t know anything about that.

            If you want my real opinion, you look like a normal-level “cute” girl, as far as I can tell from your thumbnail: way too vain for what you really are. As for getting laid, that’s truly none of your business, but I’m almost certain that I enjoy sex more than you do.

            I just think you’re being an uppity bitch about something you didn’t work for. Being attractive is just something you are born into. You didn’t choose your genes, so YOU can please get over yourself.

            Even if you were attractive by plastic surgery, you still didn’t work for it, so it’s not something to be personally proud of.

            As for my intellect? You’re not insulting me to say I think I’m smart. I’m smart because I worked for it, despite odds stacked against me. You’re really giving me a fantastic compliment. Thank you!

            The fact is, your attempt at denigrating comments about the intellectual behaviors of others only reveals your deep insecurity over your own intellect. You are afraid of being perceived as dumb, even as you continue to value your looks more than your brain and have done nothing to prove otherwise.

          • Actually…I have a job that could be severely damaged if I said the wrong thing on the internet. However, I am not stupid, nor am I afraid to use my image, as I have nothing to hide about my thoughts or how I feel. Fortunately, my thoughts and feelings are not insane.

          • Calypso_1 | Sep 21, 2013 at 9:26 am |

            If your image included uniform or official insignia, would that not be a problem?

          • Nope. My views are right, so who would have a problem with them or my uniform? A pic of me in a uniform would be cheesy, and I try to forget about my job as much as possible.

          • Calypso_1 | Sep 21, 2013 at 1:23 pm |

            1) You are not who you say you are.
            2) You are who you say you are and (a) need to review your Social Media Handbook.
            2(b) engaging in sanctioned operations.

          • Your type-structure joke about the logically dry arrangement of the Army Field Manual is funny, but I assure you I am who I say I am, and I am free to say whatever I want. Whats the point in being social if nobody knows who you are?

          • Calypso_1 | Sep 21, 2013 at 4:03 pm |

            “Whats the point in being social if nobody knows who you are?”

            perhaps you have never been to the right type of parties

          • I didn’t know people partied anymore….at least not past the age of 21ish. But, you are right, I haven’t been to the right kind of parties in a loooooooong time, as I do not partake in certain substances anymore, and seems like up north where I live, people are a little more uhhhh, non-social you could say? I’m from the south, used to party all the time, of course the weather is much more enabling.

          • Calypso_1 | Sep 22, 2013 at 6:35 pm |

            The party is in your mind. You are the only substance necessary.

          • and what is the substance of ”you” is that not the chemical Inviron-ment at a specific time composed of the chemicals floating around in body and brain, wich are fed by food, herbs, drugs ?

            so the ”you” changes every millisecond according to the chemical reactions and levels of certain chemicals,

            so if you take a certain substance or do not partake it, it radically effects the state of mind and in extension the temporarily perceived personality.

            i see this as a very liberating fact, we can consciously create our desired mindset with the choice of al-chemicals we ingest and create by sjamanic excercises,

            so we are the master of our own disaster or heaven on earth.

          • Select Casey | Sep 28, 2013 at 4:20 pm |

            Excuse me sir, it has been brought to my attention that I am you (and I don’t think she means in the George Harrison sense).
            Nice to meet me.

          • Hilarious!

          • atlanticus | Sep 22, 2013 at 1:49 pm |

            “My views are right, so who would have a problem with them”

            That’s some confidence…perhaps you’re just lucky, but it is not often that one finds themselves in a position of being right AND surrounded by those who agree that they are right.

          • has nothing to do with luck, its just skill and the power of persuasion through goodness and reason ; -) and yes, I am very confident as well.

          • atlanticus | Sep 22, 2013 at 3:11 pm |

            :O … >_>

            No comment.

          • haHA!

          • Calypso_1 | Sep 20, 2013 at 9:45 pm |

            You’re attractive?

          • haHAHA

          • I get laid all the time, and I’m still miserable, so I just fill the void with making music and reading. So there you go.

          • Also, I’m curious…. Why did you choose the “Glaucus Atlanticus” as your main photo? Same with ‘Calypso_1’ you guys both opted out of using your real image. Is that so you guys can sit safely behind the screen acting like keyboard warriors or without being judged by your appearances alone or….?

          • atlanticus | Sep 20, 2013 at 7:34 pm |


            You’re just mad that you tried to use some “big words” and someone questioned you.

          • Calypso_1 | Sep 21, 2013 at 6:48 am |

            Never signed a non-disclosure agreement or social media contract have you?

    • Lookinfor Buford | Sep 11, 2013 at 2:38 pm |

      Dawkins, what a perv.. Funny I’ve always been unimpressed with his “work” as well. Not to mention the “work” of all atheists. But your point is taken, I’m sure he’s done “something” positive at some point in his life.

    • emperorreagan | Sep 11, 2013 at 4:04 pm |

      I dislike Dawkins as a public figure and don’t agree with his stance on many things I’ve seen him comment on, but the fact that he made some equivocal statements about child molestation doesn’t mean his other arguments can simply be dismissed as the babblings of a deviant.

      He has definitely earned a heaping of mockery, though. Someone who is hardline on a divisive issue manages to be ambiguous about something that is nearly universally reviled? The mockery is well earned.

      Of course, I also like seeing anyone who has achieved that sort of cult of personality status fall on their face. Part schadenfreude, part general distrust of the sort that pursue that end.

    • kowalityjesus | Sep 11, 2013 at 6:08 pm |

      Just think, in the future we can know exactly what someone’s sexual orientation is by fMRI, then we can arrest people even before they commit a crime! Utopia is just around the corner!

    • You make a great point. I get Dawkins’ rationale for what he experienced and the paradigm of his youth, but I have to say that pedophelia is absolutely, undeniably wrong and unforgivable. Just my opinion though, we all experience reality in a different way.

    • Frater Isla | Sep 11, 2013 at 7:33 pm |

      Matt, I had a similar revelation when I found out that Peter Lamborn Wilson (aka Hakim Bey) was a member of NAMBLA, and at the very least, a proponent of pederasty. It makes it much harder for me to ever suggest his work to people, but I still appreciate his ideas.

      Though, I’m not a big fan of Dawkins, anyway.

      • Ted Heistman | Sep 12, 2013 at 6:07 am |

        Yeah, I went through the same thing with Socrates.

        • sonicbphuct | Sep 13, 2013 at 7:43 am |

          only here can i see a comment like this. I’m gonna use it the next time a friend starts complaining about their relationship. “Yeah, man – I hear you. I went through the same thing with Socrates.”

      • Matt Staggs | Sep 12, 2013 at 10:53 am |

        It’s truly difficult. I have those kinds of reactions to stuff, myself. For example, I’ve heard “Ender’s Game” is an awesome book, but I’ve yet to get around to reading it because of Orson Scott Card’s political views. I’m coming around, though. Art does not equal Artist.

        • Calypso_1 | Sep 15, 2013 at 2:06 pm |

          The more I’ve come to know OSC’s POV the more I can see it in the work. It has soured my previously naive perspective.

          • Jin The Ninja | Sep 22, 2013 at 3:03 pm |

            exactly my feelings on the subject. it was hard to not be ‘coloured’ by the politics which permeate every sentence, even the most mundane.

        • kind of like trying to listen to michael jackson’s music. or sitting through vanilla sky paranoid i’m somehow being scientologied.

          • scientology is a hardcore cult like any other in history, that indeed, we have to question any movie tom cruise agrees to star in, as he as a believer would not do anything against his cult-beliefs and do everything to advance his cult.

            like happened with southpark/isaac hayes situation.

            and for that matter , bush and john kerry with their 322 skullbones cult goes the same caution.

        • Read Ender’s game, and the Shadow series. Same with Alvin Maker. Don’t let the politics get in the way, at least for this instance. You won’t be disapointed.

          • Jin The Ninja | Sep 22, 2013 at 3:46 pm |

            i totally disagree.

            if art is not political or even social then is it really worthwhile? is it art at all?

            and if OSC’s fiction is indeed ‘art’
            his quite sadistic interpretation of the human condition is demonstrably influenced by a variety of right wing politics. that is not say it isn’t worthwhile to look at through a literary lens, because i think it is. but a thorough understanding of it cannot be achieved by blindly ignoring the components that create a whole.

            i strongly believe you can NOT divorce art and the social.

            if his work is simply entertainment or mass-media, it is governed by its own set of conventions and traits.
            if indeed his work is as accessible, as say a fox-news broadcast, then his politics certainly play an inextricable and central role in both understanding the narrative and the major themes that are propagated in the narrative.

            however, viewing it in the lens of mass-media, makes it wholly disposable; fast consumption, empty ideas.

            “propaganda as entertainment”

            i do not think that is the case, his fiction has lasted in the popular consciousness for some time. but an argument can be made for both sides (i’ve read quite a few).

            what i am saying is: you cannot have it both ways- it either is worthwhile and literary- which means understanding the politics which are espoused narratively and externally as the key to understanding the text and the canon of work, or it is simply a meaningless, politically charged, racialised, fictionalised right-wing worldview, which may or may not be examined due to its disposability/ non literary nature.

            the latter is hardly enough to endorse the work, even as ‘entertaining.’

            to ignore the politics of the work is to ignore the work itself.

            not to mention: representation of ethnicity and race in sci-fi is a very legitimate concern. literary, library, ethnic studies conferences- even including COMICON (several cons actually)- annually host forums on race in science fiction.

            not every non-white author wants to pen ‘magical realism.’

            dystopia, the supernatural, or the speculative is not just the realm of the white author or even the english language author.
            not every protag, is the ubermensch, the white ideal of masculinity. nor should he be. he should be he/she/it/them, many, multi, of colour, green even. if i can identify with white heterosexual, stock characters derived from the western tradition, why could the reverse not be true?

            why NOT a queer black dude as a spaceship captain? why NOT a british mixed race girl computer programmer who builds a time machine? why not a ‘grey’ asian-american private eye/lady’s man who stumbles across the illuminati?

            brian wood does this very well. so does ursula leguin. octavia butler?

            science fiction is for all of us. which is why it holds steady as a genre, which is why it continues to be analysed and studied as literary. why it is so popularly received. the speculative holds so many dimensions of understanding.

            reading OSC without the politics, profoundly limits the understanding of sci-fi, where it is, where it is going.

          • The Well Dressed Man | Sep 22, 2013 at 4:31 pm |

            Critical perspective appreciated. Haven’t read Ender’s Game since the 80s, but I remember it being somehow uncomfortable. While I agree that creative expression is at some level inseparable from the cultural bias of the creator, it is possible to appreciate the aesthetics of a work while holding the underlying ideas at arms length: HP Lovecraft and Yukio Mishima as examples. I really like some Death in June recordings too, but their politics are confrontationally ambiguous, at best.

          • Jin The Ninja | Sep 22, 2013 at 4:56 pm |

            i agree.

            i refuse to condemn the works. i advocate reading them – with the perspective that they should be analysed or critically reacted to, rather than digested without pause.

            the same with history. you cannot understanding fascism or genocide without examples, without critical gaze of entire events.

            most things for the radical person can be found problematic, we just have to find what is problematic about the work(s) and decide for ourselves if we can enjoy it with concession.

          • I understand where you are coming from, friend. I enjoyed the series I listed. When I read them, I was unaware of his views on homosexuality. After I found out about his stance, I rolled my eyes and thought. Too bad he’s that way. I still like the books.

            I could get into details, mostly about possible spoilers on Speaker for the Dead, and Xenophobia. Dealing with the clasifications of Framlings. Although I don’t feel it’s a necessity.

            Let me put this in another way.

            I am a heterosexual male, yet I am a fan of the Petshop boys, John Grant, and Erasure. All include openly gay performers. Now, I could dissect every lyric and think to myself. This song is singing about a dude, and I am gay for liking it.

            I may have felt that way when I was 15. Now I just think, this song is great, and I don’t have to percieve it through a gay lens. Even though it may be intended to be.

            Take for example:

            John Grant – You Don’t Have to

          • yep, really liked the culture club and boy george

            that doesnt mean i am inclined to his sexual preference.

            lets say boy george likes glenn danzig as an artist, it doesnt mean that suddenly boy has become hetereosexual.

            there can be a transcendental level to things, like love wich doesnt concern with the physcial ”nuts” ( no pun intended) and bolts of things but deals with emotions on a more abstract level wich can be felt by anyone regardless of their physical inclination, as we are also spirit and not just flesh.

          • Paul Bouzide | Sep 30, 2013 at 6:30 pm |

            And I was certain Glenn Danzig was gay! Learn something new every day.

        • Adam's Shadow | Sep 22, 2013 at 4:53 pm |

          I personally found “Ender’s Game” overrated and slightly juvenile when I first read it years ago – sort of like “Starship Troopers” without any hint of irony on the author’s part; and that was before I found out about OSC’s Mormon fundamentalism and homophobia. Not that I thought it was a bad book, just that it didn’t live up to its reputation.

          I’ve always considered myself able to separate the “Art” from the “Artist”; two big cases in point, Lovecraft and Tolkien. Lovecraft’s racism and parochialism don’t stop me from appreciating his work aside from those elements, and I’ve never thought about converting to Catholicism or thinking that I should start worshiping the “real-life” Eru just because Tolkien’s religious sensibilities informed most of his writing.

          A good story is still a good story, is what I’m trying to say.

      • Darren Prosser | Sep 18, 2013 at 8:27 pm |

        Agreed about Lamborn Wilson….in my youth I actually recommended the guy then a friend mentioned his somewhat outspoken love of children.?.yuck, just could not reconcile the two.

      • yep, i initially liked his idea of TAZ, Temporary autonomous zones, but when i found out about his pedrastic motives, i questioned the idea , wich is a logical thing to do.

        in such a TAZ, with young people without guidance, rebelling against their authority figures, they might become a naive prey to old slick predatory types with the gift of speech and charisma, like hakim bey,

        so the positive still can be undermined by the negative .

    • Amen! (No religious). Where I see this being most apparent is with politicians. People who voted for Obama will defend him to the death, just as those who voted for Bush did. It all comes down to ego and the inability to separate the person/party from their ACTIONS.

      This is also a problem when dealing with people like Julian Assange or Bradley Manning. Instead of focusing on their actions, the media tries to assassinate their CHARACTER. Then we all get distracted by the sordid details of their personal lives and forget all about their contributions to society.

      So you believe in evolution? Doesn’t mean you should defend someone else who believes in it when they say something utterly outrageous. You might love Roman Polanski’s work but find him repulsive as a human being.

      Groupthink is a dangerous thing.

    • Select Casey | Sep 26, 2013 at 3:00 pm |

      Richard who?

  11. I don’t know why everyone is always so surprised when moral relativists take a weird turn. If everything is on the table EVERYTHING is on the table

    • VaudeVillain | Sep 11, 2013 at 12:29 pm |

      Everyone is a moral relativist, most especially those who claim to be moral absolutists.

  12. Ibrahim Le Pouce | Sep 11, 2013 at 12:36 pm |

    Dawkins still has some way to go to catch up with Michel Foucault – I was going to make his ‘Madness and Civilization’ my summer reading, but was warned by my Open University tutor that Foucault was definitely NOT a suitable subject for summer reading. Philosophy, bloody hell…

  13. BuzzCoastin | Sep 11, 2013 at 12:58 pm |

    I remember Churchill making a similar comment about the gayness of
    the English Public Schools & the Royal Navy
    to which he also had a mild reaction

  14. bobyouruncle | Sep 11, 2013 at 2:13 pm |

    so the truth about the reason for Dawkins being an atheist comes to light, if there was a God, he would have stop the ( Head Master from showing him a good time.

  15. I agree with him.

  16. He isn’t defending mild pedophilia, he’s defending the fact that we can’t do much about the way people acted when the world was backwards.

    • Tuna Ghost | Sep 12, 2013 at 10:58 am |

      1950? That’s a “backwards” world to you? What he describes was considered inexcusable at that period too

  17. Rhoid Rager | Sep 11, 2013 at 3:50 pm |

    Little do we know that Dawkins’ comment is part of a larger atheist campaign to bring back genuine ancient Greek ‘knowledge’.

    • the funny thing is that the greeks , and plato and most other philosophers practised magic and believed in the supernatural, gods, daemons and spirits.
      atheists tend to forget this when they put classical greeks on a pedestal projected from this time and culture, wich is an utter illusion.

      and they did have slaves and practise child-molesting condoned or even encouraged by social norms.that might explain dawkins views.

      • Rhoid Rager | Sep 13, 2013 at 9:02 am |

        Thanks for making all of the implicit elements of my comment explicit. It was probably needed since no one seems to have gotten my joke. 😉

  18. Dan Muench | Sep 11, 2013 at 4:08 pm |

    With the shit that falls out of this guy’s mouth, if he’d just come clean and admit that he, himself, is the definition of a religious extremist…he’d be hired by the GOP or Fox News in no time flat! Quick – Dawkins! Give me a line on rape! Fantastic! Utterly vile! Someone get him a bottle of liquor and something to access twitter on, this guy is a G-O-D in the ‘I can’t believe anyone would say that, then defend it’ field. I mean, seriously, like Yoda and Bruce Lee all rolled into one, if they had the most backwards viewpoints on anything possible…

    • sonicbphuct | Sep 13, 2013 at 7:39 am |

      i think you’re thinking of christopher hitchens as the famous academic drunk atheist. thank god he died just as he became an idiot for the Dempulican wars.

  19. said some smart shit, and some dumb shit, either way, he’s just some creepy old guy, not a god. he’s like the pope for fanatacal athiests right? well, I never stray to far to either side because the deeper you get they’re both the same crazy religions.

  20. Richard Dawkins defends pedophilia the same way he defends attacks against religion —he gets to decide when the line’s been crossed.

  21. DrDavidKelly | Sep 11, 2013 at 8:44 pm |

    Yeah cant imagine a time when touching someone up was ok … ? Non consensual groping aint cool. Having said this though the concept of sexual desirability and youth go hand in pants. I see teenage school girls and just think sex sex sex sex sex.

  22. “I am very conscious that you can’t condemn people of an earlier era by the standards of ours.”

    Okay…I agree to an extent, but let’s get real here: 1950’s UK was NOT Ancient Greece. What happened was wrong by that time period’s standards, as well.

    On the other hand, I wonder if molestation is only deeply harmful to a child if s/he understands that s/he has been violated. Perhaps the lack of discussion in society about such taboos protected kids like Dawkins from the emotional after-effects. (I am in no way saying that this is better–just considering the point of view of the child…)

    • You could also say “I can’t condemn people with different traditions and customs by our own standards.” That automatically makes things like child brides okay because it’s gone on forever and is still practiced all over the undeveloped world.

      IMHO, wrong is wrong. If it causes suffering to another human being, it’s wrong. If you’re using your power–be it age, race, wealth, intelligence, professional status, etc–to manipulate someone, it’s WRONG.

      People react very differently to molestation/rape. I’ve seen sisters who were both molested have entirely different outcomes: one was a well-adjusted adult and the other was a homeless heroin addict who couldn’t get over the abuse. A person’s ability to handle stress and trauma is genetically determined in many respects.

      The fact that the physical body can be aroused while the mind is repulsed or frightened causes a lot of conflict for many abuse victims. They feel dirty or shameful because their bodies “liked” it while they knew intellectually and emotionally that it was wrong.

      • Unfortunately, you don’t have to explain the details to me…I know too many people who suffered the same…I’d almost call it an epidemic.

        But yes, my experience lines up with yours: some get over it, some never do. I just was testing another hypothesis for why that might be the case, rather than chocking it up simply to genetics.

        As you note in your last paragraph, what the victim feels about the incident at the time can play a large part in how they react later in life.

        • ”what the victim feels about the incident at the time can play a large part in how they react later in life. ”

          thats true for every experience, but the wrong is still there and the perpretrator deserves to be punished. and punishment maybe a big part of healing for the victim. otherwise some indeed maybe owned by the experience and lose a lot of energy they could have used for a happy life.

          lets say somebody beats the hell out of you, most people will feel the same about it afterwards, angry and revengeful, unless you got stockholm syndrome.

          and the one who says afterwards that it wasnt that bad and it was normal back then gettin beaten up severely etc. is just puttin up false rationalizations to cope with the unjustice they experienced.

          and thats how Dawkins’comment sounds to me, i never expected this from him or any other individual claiming they are rational in their thinking processes. he seems deluded to mea nd i wonder why ?

          A lot of victims suffer in silence all their life and get depressed or violent .and this has such a heavy impact on society, that it should never be tolerated or apologized for.

          • My position is not out of ignorance, as both of you have assumed. You should be more careful with your assumptions. You don’t know who you are talking to or what their life was like.

            Here’s a question for you, using the example of the beating: Why do you believe you are in a superior position to judge the rationale of “the one who says afterwards that it wasnt that bad”? You didn’t experience what they did. You have no way of knowing whether you would have felt the same if you had experienced what they had.

            Life is not as simple as that.

          • I know from personal experience that we victims are not always the best to judge the damage done to us.

          • Perhaps, but my point of view is often so removed from the emotional side that it seems easy to say “well, so it goes in the world” and then meditate with the thought that “the world is how it is because I am how I am”.

            So, maybe I’m just madder than a hatter…or enlightened. My ego prefers the latter…oh, wait…

          • your emotions are your best friend, they are your natural feedback system directly from the core of your being, so if you are removed from your true emotions,
            ask yourself whats wrong with you and why ?

            you are disconnected from your soul, and are operating from the surface level , easyly manipulated and cold as hell. no real empathy possible, just pretend , playing games with youself.

          • Here’s an emotion for you: anger. Tell me, what kind of “soul-less”, “cold as hell”, “lacking empathy”, etc, etc, person would say what you just said to me after understanding the context in which my comment was made?

          • what context ? please try to explain, as i cannot deduce it from your comments. i really tried, otherwise i would not have put the energy in commenting.

            i quote :

            erhaps, but my point of view is often so removed from the emotional side that it seems easy to say “well, so it goes in the world” and then meditate with the thought that “the world is how it is because I am how I am”.”

            what can i deduce from your words ?

            you tell me, because the world was there before you came on this earthplane, it has nothing to do with you, you project your ego onto the world as a self defense mechanism to protect you from the bad shit wich is sadly all around us.

            the world is not dependant or formed by any one person.

            we play a part , but we do not form the world alone as individual ego’s.

          • You care so deeply about victims of abuse, what, until they are adults? You have lost ALL legitimacy.

            This conversation is over. You should feel fucking ashamed of yourself.

          • You have made a grave mistake. I am not a “child molesting apologist” or anything you have called me. You are sickening.

            I have thought all day of how to respond to you and all that I can come up with is HOW FUCKING DARE YOU. If you had the balls to say that my face, I would have made YOU pay for what happened to me.

            For you to say I have “Stockholm Syndrome” is a step away from saying I was asking for it. You are the twisted fuck, here.

            You are hurting a real person.

            Why? What the fuck did I do to you, or any child, for that matter? I only spoke, indirectly, about how I PERSONALLY felt about MY EXPERIENCES.

            It is my RIGHT to feel what I wish about MY experiences.

            You are not in the right here.

          • The comment was not made to you; it was not for you.

            Regardless, you are reading it backwards. The world is also how it is because YOU are the way YOU are. See the other comment I have made today for further explanation.

            I will not respond to any further words from you. You are too ready to see artificial demons in others, but not in yourself–the very definition of self-absorbed egotism.

          • i never said anything about ignorance.
            i was speaking my mind in general terms, i did not make any assumption on you personally.

            why do you try to put words in my mouth ? very illogical way of reasoning and/or debating something.

            ”You don’t know who you are talking to or what their life was like.”

            this goes for anyone on this comments section. irrelevant.

            it’s not about me knowing or feeling what they have felt, thats impossible and not the point i try to make. thats something you try to project on me. why ?

            that life is not simple is irrelevant.

            i dont believe i am in a superior position, otherwise i would not need to debate things on this website. i would have known everything . again projecting incorrect things on me . you repeat the same tactic . getting boring.

            facts are facts , feeling up little children is wrong , thats that, no matter the circumstances. i dont fall for the relativistic bullshit.

            and indeed some children change the memory of the past in order to survive as is common in traumatized children.
            it doesn mean that they are not hurtin inside on a subconscious level.

            and if you think that getting beaten up severely is not bad, i wonder how your mind got twisted up like that, what’s next ?
            getting raped is not bad ? getting robbed is not so bad ?

            what the hell is wrong with you ? like playing the victim game that much ?

          • I was asking a serious question. Why do you believe you have the right to tell someone how they should feel about their own experiences?

          • and i am giving you a serious answer.

            i have the right to tell anything from my perspective, everyone else has the right not to believe me or ignore me from their perspective.

            i have nowhere said that people have to feel a certain way, i’m just trying to understand the predator-victim bond that seems to be so prevalent in mankind. why do victims allow parasites to feed off them ? whats going on there? wich process makes victims rationalize and play down the crimes comitted against them ?

            i dont know the answer, but think it is very important for mankind to analyze and solve this issue.

            if there is anyone telling others how to feel about their victimizations it’s Richard Dawkins , he says that the cases have been overblown, he speaks about victims who gave him no persmission to speak for them. maybe he was buddy’s with bbc-child-molesting-company star Jimmy Saville and Gary Glitter and other predatory Beasts.

            And two years back here in AMsterdam there was a big case with a guy from Estland working in kindergartens, who abused and filmed like 40 baby’s. and the muthafucka’s get caught but the people who they cater to , the rich childmolestors are always off the hook.

            So according to your logic if the baby’s did know know what happened to them, there is nothing wrong ?

          • “So according to your logic if the baby’s did know know what happened to them, there is nothing wrong ?”

            I knew I couldn’t have a rational discussion with you. For the answer to your question, please scroll up to my initial comment and read the very last line…

            Or perhaps that’s too difficult for you; here, I’ll do it for you: “(I am in no way saying that this is better–just considering the point of view of the child…)”


          • “You should be more careful with your assumptions. You don’t know who you are talking to or what their life was like.”

    • hmmm. i think it can be just as difficult if the person doesn’t realise it’s a violation. events like that seem to affect how personal space develops which have very strong influence on future social encounters.

  23. Tuna Ghost | Sep 12, 2013 at 11:06 am |

    I’ve been drinking a lot, because that’s is all I do now, but it’s looking to me as someone saying “I’m an educated white male from a western power and the moderate sexual abuse I experienced as child hasn’t affected me in a way that I’m able/willing to recognize, thus I can state with certainty that everyone else that suffered the same has either had the same reaction or is overreacting”. That’s basically it, right? Sounds like Dawkins, certainly. Smart man, brilliant actually, but completely unaware of when he wanders outside his area of expertise.

  24. I like Dawkins…but this is absurd.
    It’s quite possible to respect someone overall and find aspects of them insane.
    Not everyone is perfect. I highly doubt he meant literal disrespect. Probably just a case of saying something pretty dumb…which it is. He ought to apologize….and be sincere. If he does that, I see no reason to trash the guy. He was a huge advocate against the Catholic rape scandals.

    Also…he said, “Just as we don’t look back at the 18th and 19th centuries and condemn people for racism in the same way as we would condemn a modern person for racism.

    Says who? I’m 100% a-OK with calling those people racist. They were. If THEY can be excused due to when they lives….surely we could also excuse modern day racists who are simply uneducated. Surely that’s a viable excuse, right?
    Idk….in a sense, sure, I can see some merit in that argument. But still…people have the ability to be moral. If they chose not to for ANY reason, that’s their problem. Holding people accountable to idiocy is the best way to smack sense in to them so they CHANGE.

    It’s not like EVERYONE in the 18th century was pro-slavery. PLENTY of people knew it was wrong and spoke out against it. So…if THEY could do it, they surely the excuse that “oh it was different back then” holds little weight.

  25. it does not matter wich age we look at. groping a child in his/her private parts in a clearly sexual manner is criminal.

    the teacher who groped dawkins did so to satisfy his lust for young children. dawkins was at an age he propably psychologically was not strong enough to protest or defend himself.

    or he might have liked it. still dawkins is in no position then to decide if it is also ok for other children to be groped or worse.

    Also one step leads to the next, maybe dawkins was lucky that he was not raped , or maybe he was raped and has forgotten this because of the trauma associated.

    Maybe he ( like many) has become a childmolester himself and in his old maybe demented age makes the mistake to openly talk about this. ?

    And in the case of Socrates or other cultures in wich adult-child-sex was commonly practised, does not make it right. A whole culture can be demented and criminal towards certain members in the hierarchy as human history has demonstrated.

    At the end of the day it is about natural law and the autonomy and sanctity of each individual , protected by society against unwelcomed transgressions against the individual , especially children who are more impressionable, hypnotizable and vulnerable by adult authority figures.

  26. Bruteloop | Sep 13, 2013 at 7:24 am |

    Dawkins is undoubtedly influenced by the current situation in the UK where, after no longer being able to deny their apathy and even possible collusion in the covering up of Jimmy Savile’s rampant paedophilia, along with all the rest of the establishment, the police are bringing in celebrity after celebrity for offences. There is a level of hypocrisy and hysteria that is laughable. Problem is his saying this really does nothing to help the situation. The man needs to learn when to keep his mouth shut.

    • He’s probably trying to do a Chris Morris and call bullshit on the NSPCC and the tabloids going too far, knowing they can’t debate someone who can actually understand the subject.

      • Bruteloop | Sep 24, 2013 at 5:46 am |

        I don’t think it is possible for the NSPCC to go too far whereas with the tabloids that is their raison d’etre. The Savile thing was known about while it was happening. The police were, at the very least, complicit by their inaction and silence. But it was not just them. It was the press, the ‘entertainment’ world…the whole bloody lot. John Lydon mentioned it in a radio interview that in the 70s but that bit never got aired. I grew up in Yorkshire and there were always ‘rumours’ about Savile. People were also afraid of him.
        People aare so easily led by the nose. So now everyone’s up in arms and all self righteous but there sure as hell kept their eyes closed to what was always going on around them. It’s not real unless Jeremy Kyle has it on his show.

        • i’ve heard that a significant part of the british police are member of some freemasonic organization. maybe that can explain the non-effectiveniss of action against these crimes. ?

    • ”There is a level of hypocrisy and hysteria that is laughable.”

      what do you mean by this ?
      please define the hipocrisy , and who are responsible and wich form it has,

      and please describe the so called hysteria ? who are hysterical , and why do you think that ?
      the victims have been victimized as young children by pervert old bastards, and it took a lot of courage and time for them to come out in the open, so i have the utmost respect for them , they are being real, and not hysterical at all .

      and why ar e you defending oll filthy perverts anyway ?

      it’s just that this shit has been kept hidden so long, and now that it is disclosed , it is a lot of crap to digest for a lot of people, and so they go into defense mechanisms , downplaying it.

      • Bruteloop | Sep 24, 2013 at 5:29 am |

        Calm down. I am not defending any perverts. I was abused as a child and as a teenager so I am the last person to do that. I refer to the hypocrisy of a police force and any number of influential and powerful people who ignored the pleas and complaints from those who were abused until years later when, because of the Savile case, they are not able to sweep it under the carpet any more. The hysteria is from the press. It was all known about Savile and others for years. NOW we are led to believe these hypocrites care. They don’t. They just sell papers. It was covered up for years. Is that and now we are meant to applaud them for ;doing the right thing’? That they expect that and play on that is rank hypocrisy. I would also suggest that the arrests of high profile figures accused of abuse that was covered up years ago acts as a smokescreen. Do you see anything really being done about abuse that is going on now.? No. The police ignored the prostitution in Wales and the Midlands until it was revealed by, initially, one reporter.

        There, have I defined it enough for you? I am tired of people confusing pointing fingers and name calling with actually doing anything about the problem at all. People these days think that because they have an opinion and express it they are actually doing something. Empty words that allow the real culprits to carry on quietly while the papers, the police and the social services act as if they are stopping it going on.

        As forit being hidden…really? Anyone with an ounce of suss should have figured out what was going on. Just among friends of mine I can think immediately of two women who were raped by their fathers. I can think of three men who were abused by teachers or friends of the family. My mother was sexually abused. My grandmother worked in service during the war and was raped repeatedly.

        I’m not defending anyone. I just want to see less empty histrionics and more definitive legal action. For every high profile arrest there are a hundred punters visiting underage prostitutes all around the country.
        Married men. Fathers. Upstanding citizens.

        That’s hypocrisy writ large.

        Then everyone gets their tabloids and ‘oohs’ and ‘aahs’ about some celebrity..while someone they know is at it in one form or another.

        Is that clear enough for you?

        • Ok , now i see what you mean, sometimes using too few words can become interpretable in many ways, thats why i asked for some clarification.

          i agree with you that the problem is much more widespread then just the elite and famous persons in the public eye.

          it’s a very difficult issue to resolve, as a child even in a normal situation is always subjected to the conscious or unconscious negative and positive effects of the parental figures and other persons in authority. the child is physically weaker and thus always loses.

          how do we empower children to speak up to certain trustworthy people so they can ring the alarm much earlier in an abuse situation instead for it to be going on for a long time.

          i dont know the answers, but maybe putting up a structure of time away from the familystructure , in a safe environment, allowing the children to speak up.

          but even then the child knows it has to go back and will in fear be hesitant to say anything.

          it really makes me sick, how fucked up humanity is and has been in many ways, not just this issue.

          • Bruteloop | Sep 24, 2013 at 7:24 am |

            I can see that my dismissiveness of the media circus can be read as dismissiveness entirely.
            I find it depressing as well that children are more sexualised in the media, in advertising, in music marketing and so on than ever before.
            Savile was evil. Some of the others were just typical of their time. The 70s were creepy that way. 16 year old girls were ‘dolly birds’. Savile preyed on younger, male and female and painfully vulnerable. Others were just chauvinistic, self obsessed, ignorant pricks. I don’t think they should get away with anything but for all the attention paid to Dave Lee Travis or Rolf Harris in court there should be as much, if not more, attention paid to failures by the social services, the police and the medical profession. How many more infants need to die before they stop carrying out reviews and admitting mistakes had been made and start preventing the tragedies in the first place? I live in London. I bet you I could find an underage kid for sale in a day or so if I looked hard enough. I know I could find an under nourished, uncared for kid within a stones throw. We pretend to ourselves we are civilised. It is 2013 and we still have slavery, human trafficking and the exploitation of the most vulnerable in our society.
            In the meantime, actors and sportsmen earn millions and pop ‘divas’ pedal hackneyed titillation as self empowerment for young girls.
            It stinks.

          • i agree . we are socially conditioned by the powers that be into a strange fucked up world ,even more so than in the past.

            in commoners there is also evil people of course, but the elite seam to have a much higher occurence of straight up gangsterism in their blood , actions and mindset.

            i wonder if we deserve as a human race the leaders we have ? or are we so asleep and incapacitated to act vigilantly and decisive against evil in our midst that we create a vacuum in wich this shit manifests ?

            something weird is definetely going on. and i would like to get to the deep end of why and what ,andn how especially the psychological, evolutionary and biological causes for our twisted behaviour patterns.

            it’s like we are mind-infected and the infection gives off a druglike high when comitting evil acts against the vulnerable throughout history. the native americans called it wendigo.

            a psychic outbreak of a parasitic infection wich takes over the rational mind and overrides empathy for others.

  27. Ammy Pearson | Sep 13, 2013 at 9:36 am |

    I hope he burns in hell.

  28. Adam's Shadow | Sep 14, 2013 at 3:53 pm |

    Dawkins said more or less the same thing in “The God Delusion” several years ago; not necessarily defending or condemning his words, just pointing out that he has stated this opinion before.

  29. gustave courbet | Sep 15, 2013 at 4:47 pm |

    This forum’s a bit stale but I’ll throw in my 2 cents anyhow: I was struck by Dawkin’s use of the example of historical differences in morals and ethics. So pedophilia was socially acceptable in 1950s England?

  30. It’s the price and danger of celebrity status. Normal people get to say stupid shit without making headlines… I’ve done it plenty of times.

  31. down with the bedclothes
    up with the nightshirt!
    fiddled, now fiddler about?
    has Uncle Ernie peeked out?

  32. Dawkins may not have thought that one all the way through. Perhaps, just perhaps, the damage was so pervasive and commonplace that it seemed insignificant to him because of its routine nature. This doesn’t make it less appalling…it makes it more appalling…but there are some truths in all this worth examining. Modern attitudes about pedophilia and the secrecy and shame surrounding it are built on the back of past attitudes that kept the crimes hidden and safely brushed under the rug. The only way to stop it is not to assume its some mild wrongdoing of the past…but a widespread issue of the present that doesn’t get dealt with in a thoughtful and rational way. As we attach hysterics to it, the subject becomes one that people won’t even broach…and that victims don’t want to endure. So great is the stigma that many of the abused dare not speak even now. If people are deadly serious about ending these kinds of incidents…its going to take a radically different attitude.

    • i would like to find out what attitude as humanity who is good in spirit and wishes it’s offspring to do better in the future needs to realize this goal of a heaven on earth utopia. does anyone have suggestions ?

  33. Of course the rape and murder of children is not comparable to a ‘mild touching up’ FFS. Whilst I’m at it teenagers are not children and drawings of nonexistent children are not images of child abuse, but in a normal society what Dawkins said would not be controversial because he wasn’t saying its alright just calling for common sense. Lol.

    People bashing Dawkins are forgetting he is talking about his own experiences as an 11 year old kid, were half the sensationalism put about paedophilia and sex abuse true, he would’ve been traumatised for the rest of his life. People ought to think before they react.

    • he is also playing down the way other victims should feel about it.

      thats the problem, he is generalizing, projecting his dealings to everyone else, without their consent. fukkin read the article , you nimwit.

      and what if your 11 year old child got touched up by a 50 year old pervert in an authorative position, misusing this for his own lust, would you say, it’s ok, it’s just mild molesting ?

      if so , you are a bad parent, not protecting your child as you should be. i would fukkin hang the bastard , and torture him endlessly before passing him over to hell.

  34. Select Casey | Sep 26, 2013 at 2:54 pm |

    This thread delivered.

    • atlanticus | Sep 26, 2013 at 7:53 pm |

      You still look like a potato.

      • Select Casey | Sep 27, 2013 at 4:04 am |

        Maybe I do. I’d rather look like a potato than an antisocial hatemonger all things considered

        • atlanticus | Sep 28, 2013 at 1:29 pm |

          That’s funny, Mrs. Potatohead, considering you ARE an antisocial hatemonger. Maybe you need to look up the definitions of these terms. I was defending myself against attack. You have been nothing other than rude to me since you’ve arrived.

          Or should I say “Mr. Potatohead”? I’m not convinced that you aren’t Chiller posting under another name. Whoever you are, get a life and stop trying to feed off of energy from mine.

          • Select Casey | Sep 28, 2013 at 4:37 pm |

            LOL XD
            Were you defending yourself when you told miss kitty she felt highly of herself and insinuated she was in “la-La-Land”?
            Were you defending yourself when you challenged chiller with “You are part of the problem in more ways than just your callous, quick-to-judge hatred.”? ironic how callous and quick to judge that hatred is too huh?

            You’re being more than a little paranoid too, you seem to think you’re being attacked by me. SO you think I’m chiller huh? this would be a good explanation of why you’re being such an arse towards me.

            Don’t be so self important as to think i bear you any ill will.


          • atlanticus | Sep 28, 2013 at 4:56 pm |

            Ah, I see then; you’re just ignorant…context, context, context.

            I told Miss Kitty what I did because of what she said to Calypso. She was rude and deserved the criticism.

            I told Chiller what I did because he said something so vile to me I will not repeat it. I assumed, when you said “this thread really delivered” that you were agreeing with the vile things that Chiller had said about me. If this is untrue, than I apologize for making an assumption about your meaning.

            However, it is not my fault you cannot scroll through the comments and put them into chronological order.

            This does not, in any way, get you off the hook for your un-provoked attack on me. It’s your turn to apologize for jumping to conclusions about situations which you do not fully understand, “kid”.

            By the way, if you want to go there, tell me: why does a woman who thinks I am a “kid” to her feel the need to put me in my place? Really? You attack me, but you thought that Miss Kitty was in the right for her superficial insults? You are incredibly inconsistent, to say the least.

          • Select Casey | Sep 29, 2013 at 1:36 am |

            Attack attack attack. Yawn. All people do is attack you. Its horrible. being you must be terrible, I’d hug you but I’m scared I’d be Attacking you with compassion

          • atlanticus | Sep 29, 2013 at 7:05 pm |

            *eye-roll* Whatever, lady. I explained myself thoroughly. Please leave me alone now.

          • atlanticus | Sep 28, 2013 at 4:58 pm |

            Also, “La-la-Land” is a well-known moniker for L.A., where she is from.

            (Sheesh, lady…you have the internet…)

          • Select Casey | Sep 29, 2013 at 3:33 am |

            how are we supposed to have a coherent conversation if you edit your comments drastically before mine can be moderated?

            for the benefit of continuity, i was responding to this;
            “Ah, I see then; you’re just ignorant…context, context, context.

            I told Miss Kitty what I did because of what she said to Calypso. She was rude and deserved the criticism.

            I told Chiller what I did because he said something so vile to me I will not repeat it. I assumed, when you said “this thread really delivered” that you were agreeing with the vile things that Chiller had said about me. If this is untrue, than I apologize for making an assumption about your meaning.

            However, it is not my fault you cannot scroll through the comments and put them into chronological order.

            This does not, in any way, get you off the hook for your un-provoked attack on me. It’s your turn to apologize for jumping to conclusions about situations which you do not fully understand, “kid”.

            (By the way, if you want to go there, tell me: why does a woman who thinks I am a “kid” to her feel the need to put me in my place? Really? You attack me, but you thought that Miss Kitty was in the right for her superficial insults? You are incredibly inconsistent, to say the least.)”

          • atlanticus | Sep 29, 2013 at 7:07 pm |

            LOL, I didn’t edit shit. Both comments are still there.

            They were SEPARATE comments, thus proving my point: either you have a severe issue with keeping up with chronological order (in your brain-meats) or else there is some computer / website issue.

            Back off now. I don’t have time for your nonsense.

  35. homelessguy | Jan 12, 2014 at 10:02 pm |

    What Dawkins said is very true and unfortunately people
    cannot handle discussions in this area because if you don’t
    absolutely abhor and rebuke the behavior and the person
    – you yourself are deemed worse than a pedophile.
    If you simply watch the movie (or play) “The History Boys” it
    shows this kind of behavior which happens (or used to) in
    a way that did not destroy them for life. Adults, relative, older
    boys or girls have often done sexual mischief to younger kids.
    This is different than a pattern and practice time and time again
    when the youth cannot do anything to stop it. There are lots of
    instances in kids or young people’s or even adults that are
    not pleasant – but hardly scar them.
    You cannot discuss certain subjects with most people
    these days. A lot of the emotionally scarring is caused by
    society’s labeling you as unclean or damaged.

Comments are closed.