• Brown Don

    Okay sound to me ,but how does one explain exosicm and demons?

    • jasonpaulhayes

      What’s your take on exorcism and demons?

    • echar

      Ancient and outdated rituals that serve a purpose akin to psychic sugeons, placebo effect/mind over matter?

    • BuzzCoastin

      the human mind is the explanation

    • The Well Dressed Man
    • Reasor

      Wee-meaning people doing their best to explain how the world works before the invention of the microscope? Hucksters making a living off a Bronze Age precursor to Vaudeville? Most likely an even mixture of both?

  • jasonpaulhayes

    It’s always taken the wrong way when I say I’m religiously intolerant… I do encourage personal and interpersonal disciplinary meditative practices, just not organized religion. It’s hard to explain to anyone caught up in a dogma that the main qualifier for organized religion is intolerance not tolerance.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U9M7FWI9WJk

  • Ted Heistman

    I think there was an actual Guru type figure named Jesus that got killed by the Romans and The Jewish religious establishment. I think its a matter of personal choice to consider him divine or not. No way to prove something like that one way of the other. I think the New Testament was influenced by many other Religious and Spiritual traditions and symbolism. I don’t know why it strikes people as so implausible that there was at least some sort of historical figure behind the myth. Maybe some day people will dispute the existence of L Ron Hubbard and Joseph Smith. Of course these guys aren’t seen as being Messianic exactly but they did get the ball rolling.

    I think many skeptics are actually more literalistic than many believers.

    I also see many parallels between the Gospels and the Bhagavad Gita. Christianity is actually considered by many Hindus to be a form of Bhakti Yoga. Its the path devotion. Krishna or Christ don’t need to be literal historic figures for this Spiritual Practice to work.

    • jasonpaulhayes

      The burden of proof rests with the believer not the skeptic. Might as well be Apollonius of Tyana, Horus or any one of a hundred characters with a supposed virgin birth, death and resurrection as the Son (Sun) of God whose divinity is up for debate. If Jesus were an actual living person, the best claim I’ve seen is that he was Cesarian son of Cleopatra (Virgin Isis-Mari) and Julius Caesar (God King) masquerading and hiding behind a shroud of many Pagan and Egyptian qualities written in stone and is in effect histories lost and unwanted God King.

      • Ted Heistman

        OK, just out of curiosity what is the massive pay off of Jesus not being an historical figure? If it an empowering myth for people who cares?

        To me, Krishna/Christ are pretty much the same. Its a myth that is out there has been out there for a while and obviously serves some purpose or it would have died out long ago.

        • philip d

          The pay off? The truth.

          • Ted Heistman

            Kind of a weird truth, taking great pains to point out an inconsequential fact.

          • Sean

            inconsequential??
            To you maybe.
            But 90% of the US believe this guy ACTUALLY existed. It wouldn’t be remotely inconsequential to them.

          • Ted Heistman

            2 things:
            There is good reason to believe there was some sort of historical figure behind the myth.

            Second of all, you can’t prove the Divine or Spiritual aspects either way. The Mythological aspects are what are most important to Christians in diverse spiritual traditions

            So getting caught up in disproving the existence of Jesus as an historical person doesn’t really seem to have any pay off.

          • Matt Staggs

            Well put.

        • jasonpaulhayes

          It’s about the burden of proof, the power of historical revisionism and the desire to accurately paint a picture of what’s allowed the atrocities of the past so they don’t occur again.

    • http://hormeticminds.blogspot.com/ Chaorder Gradient

      i always thought of it as a symbol for a youthful perspective of an ancient culture, teaching a hardheaded old-minded, yet young culture lessons, and getting the shit kicked out of itself for trying. A happenstance that is can happen in any age, and not in ancient times….. maybe even today….

      One thing that stuck out when i was watching the Tolkien video the other day was the emphasis on stories of truth, yet not fact. But the biggest arguments are always about facts, and not about truth….

      • Ted Heistman

        Yeah, I liked that Tolkien thing too, I listened to it twice.

    • Charlie Primero

      Ted, have you read Joe Atwill’s book “Caesar’s Messiah”, or seen their documentary at the link in the above video?

      Atwill’s thesis is that the Flavian emperors designed Christianity to combat the problem of Jewish insurgent tax resisters by short-circuiting the Jewish Messianic movement.

      • Ted Heistman

        I think that premise is really implausible. Atwill has influenced my thinking in the sense that it caused me to take a hard look at how I have bought into too many paranoid conspiracy theories.

        I say that, not to say that people in power don’t conspire to manipulate the masses, but that the degree of control they exercise is really over -estimated in many of these theories. Its almost a belief in and of itself. Its an overly simplistic attempt at making sense of the world.

        Its kind of like positing angels to describe how the sun rises and sets. Everything bad must have been planned by scheming psychopaths in power.

        • Charlie Primero

          Have you read Atwill’s book “Caesar’s Messiah” ?

          • Ted Heistman

            I just read an article that mentions it and ties it in with Atwil’s theory that since the Romans Emperors created Christianity for financial reasons, its equally plausible that “Bankers” created the entire 1960′s counter culture. So I am going to take a leap and say that his theory about Christianity is probably equally bogus and contains similar enormous leaps in logic. I could be wrong.

          • Charlie Primero

            I estimate “Caesar’s Messiah” is about 70% true. Some of his biggest “parallels” are not well-supported by his evidence. It’s been two years since I read it, so I can’t remember the specifics.

            The assertion that Bankers created the Counter Culture is indeed bogus. I don’t know anyone who believes that. However, if you read the academic studies the Bankers funded, you can see the dumbed-down, juvenile culture of dependency they intended to create.

          • Ted Heistman

            Irvin and Atwill really do seem to be saying that:

            “When
            comparing the results of their research, Irvin and Atwill developed a
            theory about the origin of the psychedelic movement of the 1960’s: The
            “counterculture” had been developed by elements within the U.S.
            government and banking establishment as part of a larger plan to bring
            about a new Dark Age; or, as it was marketed to potential victims, an
            ‘archaic revival.’[4]
            – See more at:
            http://www.gnosticmedia.com/manufacturing-the-deadhead-a-product-of-social-engineering-by-joe-atwill-and-jan-irvin/#sthash.mOEjzcsQ.dpuf

            The article goes at great length to describe how the authors believe this was accomplished, not just with psychedelics but with the counterculture as a whole with everything from rock and roll to integration.

            Irvin harps on grammar and rules of logic, but I find that when he says really stupid things his fans simply can’t see it.

          • Charlie Primero

            As with most things, “It’s more complicated than that”. :-)

            Irvin is myopic about entheogens. Atwill is myopic about Christianity. Those myopothies get boring and irritating fast.

            Ted, please consider the broader history of human resource management. The “History So It Doesn’t Repeat” series by Richard Grove is awesome. You gotta check it out…

            http://www.tragedyandhope.com/history-the-last-will-of-cecil-rhodes/

          • Ted Heistman

            I prefer Tocqueville, Leo Strauss, Plato, people like that to get a handle on how Aristocrats think. I just think it tends to get framed in a sensationalistic way in the conspiracy genre. Its not that I don’t think there is manipulation going on.

    • kowalityjesus

      I encourage those who are skeptical of the existence of the historical
      Jesus to execute some research on the Shroud of Turin. Within the past
      year, new evidence has emerged to place its origins from the era of
      Christ (the sample taken for the previous carbon dating test contained
      material used to repair the shroud in the middle ages). The carbon date
      was the only piece of evidence standing in the way of its undeniable
      veracity. Among the evidence confirming it as the burial cloth of Jesus
      Christ: soil samples from a specific type of soil in the area of
      Jerusalem, pollens from multiple flowers all of which bloom around
      passover in area of Jerusalem, real blood containing a chemical
      indicative of being from a scourged man, utter anatomical flawlessness,
      no discernible pigment used to create the image (it has been described
      as only being able to be reproduced using powerful ultraviolet lasers).

  • BuzzCoastin

    it does seem odd that God Almighty
    picked a era with scanty communication systems
    to come and pronounce His message to the world
    and
    managed to do so without any unequivocal historical record of it
    but that which was reassembled hundreds of years later by ardent believers
    but
    as most here know
    it doesn’t really matter one way or the other

  • NathanSpeller

    This is brilliant! I too believe in some sort of historical Jesus but clearly the parallels with pagan myths are there to be explored.

  • Alex Clark

    They found records in Palestine pre dating the council of Nicea, and how the records talked about the early beliefs in Christianity.
    - There was nothing mentioned about miracle cures
    - Nothing mentioned about resurrection
    - nothing mentioned about Christs blood, or bread being the flesh of Christ
    - There was nothing mentioned about him being divine and or the son of God

    His teachings correlated with Buddhism and Hinduism. He was viewed as a monk to a lot of the early Christians at that time, and was talked about as being someone who was a messenger of the “God’s” plural not singular God.

    Just goes to show that Christianity was a hijacked religion, that was used as a Domesticating religion, that was taught to lower class people in order to domesticate the masses by the Talmudic/Jewish Elite at that time.
    - The Post Egyptian/Talmudic Elite would come up with pseudo religions that would preach and force people to believe in a “All Powerful God”, who you must submit to, and bring in all these other concepts of submission, cannibalism, fear mongering and sacrifice.

    • Ted Heistman

      I think the idea of Christianity being subverted to various agendas is more plausible than it being created whole cloth from the get go as a scheme for increased social control.

    • Guest

      You are skipping a lot of history. Aside the canonical books, see The Didache, The Shepherd, the Dead Sea Scrolls, and the writings of Polycarp, Ignatius, and Clement–all 2nd century at latest. There were myriad smaller, divergent sects claiming to be the church. The Council of Nicea was to devise a creed that all could agree upon.
      You’re free to decide whether the right beliefs won out, but Gnostic groups cannot claim to be earliest or most prevalent. I doubt they’d care much anyway. After all, Mormons believe they’re the true Christians, and they’ve been around less than 200 years without ever being a majority.

  • Sean

    Neat. I’ve been a big big fan of Tim Freke’s for years.

    I highly recommend his book “Lucid Living” which talk about the whole “enlightenment” thing in terms of a waking lucid dream.

    Also the new book he just put out, “The Mystery Experience” which is about how absurd it is that 99% of humans are sure they know what life is, what they’re supposed to do, who they are, etc…when in reality, life is utterly profoundly insanely mysterious to the core. When it comes to the big important questions, we are utterly in the dark.

  • elvister crowley

    Orion was said to have walked on water too.

  • Ethan Celery

    Disinformation respublishes Hugh Schoenfeld’s “The Passover Plot, and that book (or at least my elitist snob original pre-Disinfo copy) more or less suggests the following: Jesus did not want to get decapitated like his mentor, John the Baptist. His pal, Lazarus, stumbled upon and tested a 3-day sleeping potion.

    Can you fill in the rest of the blanks on your own? I know what I think I believe at the moment, though that could change in the future. ;]

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